Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]Edit: RULES FOR THIS THREAD
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30517 Replies
I think it's making anti Israeli sentiments worse. Re actual anti Semitism though, why should it matter? Why should Jews worldwide be held accountable for Israel's actions?Anti Semites are simply using Israel's action as an excuse for their anti Semitism, to give it some form of superficial legitimacy. So I think anti Semites are making the above issue worse.
It's called human nature
He may think that but other Jews my well not think that and it's irrelevant anyway. Neither Mets nor any other Jew should be subjected to anti Semitism due to Israel's actions and it doesn't matter at all if those are Mets' beliefs re Jews having a connection to Israel. People are allowed to have beliefs. "Herein lies the issue" kinda comes across as implying "Hey that's what ya get for having such beliefs innit? Herein lies the issue after all"
And to clarify I don't think that's your intention
I appreciate you CV
I love the way you say lol proving this is all a big joke to you
less posts about trying to convince hamas supporters to care about anitsemitism (spoiler, they dont) and more posts about the future of hezbollah please
what is the point of them now?
Unless someone is going to arm the actual Lebanon army so they can be more powerful than Hezbollah (not a great idea), Hezbollah will retool after Israel withdraws and break the ceasefire (hopefully takes 2+ years at least) and the cycle repeats unfortunately
He may think that but other Jews my well not think that and it's irrelevant anyway. Neither Mets nor any other Jew should be subjected to anti Semitism due to Israel's actions and it doesn't matter at all if those are Mets' beliefs re Jews having a connection to Israel. People are allowed to have beliefs. "Herein lies the issue" kinda comes across as implying "Hey that's what ya get for having such beliefs innit? Herein lies the issue after all"
Can I take it you also believe that there is no justification for holding palestinians in general responsible for the actions of hamas?
Buddy, I am simply pointing out that “land theft of Arabs” is a ridiculous statement given the tangible amount of land Israel has occupied over a century.
As I understand it, Israel’s laws function to preserve a Jewish state, not to oppress foreigners. I’m sorry you misunderstand them.
I’m sorry but this is just not a fair take at all.
Ridiculous as “land theft of Arabs” may or may not be you can’t blindly ignore that an entire people have been oppressed and hide behind the cloak of “those laws are meant to preserve a Jewish state, the fact that millions of people (who by the way are not foreigners) are segregated is just a by-product, and Israel holds no accountability for that because that wasn’t the governing body’s intent.”
You’re essentially saying that as long as your interpretation of the laws is a benevolent one, the course of your actions is immune to criticism and due process of justice. You do realize how dangerous this is?
Listen it’s absolutely fair that Jews want and deserve the right to statehood and to exist as a people. But, that can not and must not come at the expense of others.
Human nature to hate Jews because of your (not you personally) perspective on the war?
Bs
The hate of jews was already there. The war let's them pose as activists to express it
Yeah, a lot of people are racist, good luck eradicating that.
I'm American, I've traveled a lot. In the 2000's with the Iraq war going on I wasn't as comfortable abroad. Definitely most majority Muslim countries were pretty much off the list for me during that time. Don't think I'd want to be a traveling rabbi in the middle east right now.
Can I take it you also believe that there is no justification for holding palestinians in general responsible for the actions of hamas?
In fact they are victims of Hamas, especially when used as human shields.
That doesn't change the fact that Israel still has to defend itself which includes destroying forever, and making it impossible to rebuild, all capacity to strike again for neighbors.
Innocent victims indeed.
I'm afraid the rest is just not true. There are choices being made and there is nothing remotely 'forever' about it.
Re the current conversation. The infections of antisemitism and islamophobia are an inevitable consequence of this horror show.
a cease-fire where Israel is allowed to fire on people returning to their homes but no one can fire at the invaders.
I think it's making anti Israeli sentiments worse. Re actual anti Semitism though, why should it matter? Why should Jews worldwide be held accountable for Israel's actions?
Well, if you subscribe to the ethnonationalist ideology that Jews worldwide owe their allegiance to a nation-state they may never have visited, and if you believe they shouldn't criticize the Israeli gov't during a time of war, then it makes sense to hold Jews worldwide accountable for what Israel does.
Obviously that's a trash ideology practiced by a pariah outlaw nation and its apologists and it's making Jews around the world less safe.
Can I take it you also believe that there is no justification for holding palestinians in general responsible for the actions of hamas?
Sure. See how easy that was? Not sure if you're implying this but I don't believe Israel are doing this. Hamas are hiding among the Palestinian population while launching rocket attacks. This isn't a collective punishment, it's a particularly nasty war/current round of hostilities with context and nuance and no absolute easy solutions or answers. If Israel retaliate against Hamas attacks launched from heavily populated civilian areas, then many civilians will die. If they don't, Hamas will keep launching attacks, where many civilians will die. Israel have given warnings for civilians to leave certain areas, so again this isn't collective punishment, if that's what you're implying with your post. Apologies if I inferred wrongly.
Wasn't implying anything. Others have argued they are responsible.
I'm don't agree it isn't collective punishment or with the justifications for israels behavior but either way a rise in the infections were discussing is an inevitable consequence.
Well, if you subscribe to the ethnonationalist ideology that Jews worldwide owe their allegiance to a nation-state they may never have visited, and if you believe they shouldn't criticize the Israeli gov't during a time of war, then it makes sense to hold Jews worldwide accountable for what Israel does.
Sorry but you're going on like Israel are akin to white supremacists with your ethnonationalist comment and its connotations. If Jews weren't persecuted for thousands of years then maybe they wouldn't have felt the need to create their own state, three years after an attempted genocide in Europe to go with various pogroms.
Of course you can criticise a nation during a war. I myself stated they should concentrate more on assassinations, put more boots on the ground, and put their troops at risk in order to minimise civilian casualties, cyber attacks, etc. You can absolutely legitimately criticise some of Israel's methods and actions. It's when you start blathering about genocide and apartheid and using words like ethnonationalist, then you're open to accusations of at the very least, bad faith debating.
Obviously that's a trash ideology practiced by a pariah outlaw nation and its apologists and it's making Jews around the world less safe.
No. Anti Semites and bigots are making Jews the world over less safe. Don't engage in apologia or attempt to alleviate the personal responsibility of anti Semites for their actions and hate crimes. It's Israel's fault that Jews worldwide are getting attacked or are less safe, huh? I don't for a minute believe you're in any way anti Semitic, but this is how such accusations come about, you're essentially blaming the world's one Jewish state on everything, including anti Semitic crimes against Jews worldwide. You also disregard any sense of history and context for Israel's existence and indeed a Jewish homeland by simplistically equating them to ethnonationalists, subtly dehumanising them in the process. Again I consider this bad faith debating, and counter productive as again it leads to such accusations, which stifles proper debate.
Wasn't implying anything. Others have argued they are responsible.
I'm don't agree it isn't collective punishment or with the justifications for israels behavior but either way a rise in the infections were discussing is an inevitable consequence.
Okay. I mean no offence but I honestly find your posts difficult to make out what you actually mean, so I'm gonna bow out here. Not even sure what you're on about sorry, as your post seems to be "Hey $hit happens due to those inevitable consequences, whaddyagonnadooo, eh?"
And I just think that's a pointless observation that doesn't actually mean anything. Assuming that's what you meant, you never can really tell with you so again gonna bow out here, cheers.
If Jews weren't persecuted for thousands of years then maybe they wouldn't have felt the need to create their own state, three years after an attempted genocide in Europe to go with various pogroms.
Palestinian's had nothing to do with this. why should they pay for European White Supremacy's genocide of the European Jews?
Since Vic is posting times of Israel accounting, I listened to their daily podcast today
The ceasefire is gradual.
Lebanon and Israel both signed off. Hezbollah did not but allegedly verbally agreed
Resolution 1701 passed 20 years ago must be in force for hezbollah to be in compliance. That means they must back up way of the line. Lebanon troops can be there but not Hezbollah. Hezbollah has not complied with that for 20 years so good luck
An international force including Un and US support
as well as mid east countries (possibly Saudi which i have been saying all year) should be on the border. It is unclear if that means US boots on the ground but there is no way Trump will allow US boots anywhere near there
The Israeli population were dead against this deal but bibi did it anyway. The far right isn't complaining. Speculation is that they will go harder in Gaza although US is confident they can rein it in
All pretty interesting. If we really support the Lebanese army to control the border and keep Hezbollah away from it by supporting financially and with actual support I think hezbollah won't be able to do much. So there is hope
The actual Lebanon government has never been strong. Maybe supporting them will let Iran know that hezbollah is a lost cause? We can only help
Wasn't implying anything. Others have argued they are responsible.
I'm don't agree it isn't collective punishment or with the justifications for israels behavior but either way a rise in the infections were discussing is an inevitable consequence.
I don't think anyone itt has said that the Palestinian people are responsible or deserve to die
Sorry but you're going on like Israel are akin to white supremacists with your ethnonationalist comment and its connotations. If Jews weren't persecuted for thousands of years then maybe they wouldn't have felt the need to create their own state, three years after an attempted genocide in Europe to go with various pogroms.
Jews were persecuted, therefore it's okay for them to adopt an ideology that you yourself say is akin to white supremacy?
Like, the Germans were persecuted by the Romans and got clobbered during WWI. Guess it's okay for them to adopt an ethnonationalist identity?
Of course you can criticise a nation during a war.
Take that up with mets, he thinks otherwise.
Yeah, a lot of people are racist, good luck eradicating that.
I'm American, I've traveled a lot. In the 2000's with the Iraq war going on I wasn't as comfortable abroad. Definitely most majority Muslim countries were pretty much off the list for me during that time. Don't think I'd want to be a traveling rabbi in the middle east right now.
Yeah there's definite truth to this. I worked in hospitality at the time in Front Office and on several occasions had to intervene to stop American guests being hassled. And no you won't eradicate such things but that doesn't mean it should be accepted, just because a-holes gonna a-hole. I was ardently against both wars but certainly didn't feel the American people should have been held responsible for it. A holes don't get a free pass, just because something big and emotive is happening in the world.
Since Vic is posting times of Israel accounting, I listened to their daily podcast today
The ceasefire is gradual.
Lebanon and Israel both signed off. Hezbollah did not but allegedly verbally agreed
Resolution 1701 passed 20 years ago must be in force for hezbollah to be in compliance. That means they must back up way of the line. Lebanon troops can be there but not Hezbollah. Hezbollah has not complied with that for 20 years so good luck
An international force including Un and US support
as we
Israel violated 1701 literally 10s of thousands of times before Oct 7th. the expecation is that Hezbollah follows the rules and puts themselves at a disadvantage while Israel breaks the rules with impunity.
Israel is already breaking the terms.
If Jews weren't persecuted for thousands of years then maybe they wouldn't have felt the need to create their own state, three years after an attempted genocide in Europe to go with various pogroms.
.
Here's just the past 300
Spoiler
1700s
tolerance than open persecution".
1783
The Sultan expels the Moroccan Jews for failing to pay an exorbitant ransom.[263]
1785
Ali Burzi Pasha murders hundreds of Libyan Jews.[264]
1786
Jews are expelled from Jeddah, most of them flee to Yemen.[265]
1790
Yazid becomes the Sultan of Morocco and immediately orders troops to massacre and plunder the Jewish quarter of Tétouan
1790–1792
Destruction of most of the Jewish communities of Morocco.
1791
Catherine II of Russia confines Jews to the Pale of Settlement and imposes them with double taxes.[271]
1800s
Spoiler
1805, June 29
Two to five hundred Algerian Jews are massacred.
1819
1811
Head of the Jewish community of Algiers David ben Joseph Coen Bakri is decapitated by the Dey Hadj Ali.
1815
Eight Jews are burned at the stake in Algiers.[1]
1815
Pope Pius VII reestablishes the ghetto in Rome after the defeat of Napoleon.
1818
Turks from Algiers attack Constantine, massacre and pillage Jewish homes, and abduct 17 young Jewish girls whom they bring to their commander.[2]
1819
A series of anti-Jewish riots in Germany that spread to several neighboring countries: Denmark, Latvia and Bohemia known as Hep-Hep riots, from the derogatory rallying cry against the Jews in Germany
1827
Compulsory military service for the Jews of Russia: Jewish boys under 18 years of age, known as the Cantonists, were placed in preparatory military training establishments for 25 years. In practice, Jewish children were often forcibly conscripted as young as eight or nine years old. Cantonists were encouraged and sometimes forced to baptize.
1829
The law in Canada requiring the oath "on my faith as a Christian" was amended in 1829 to provide for Jews to not take the oath.
1830
The Persian Jewish population of Tabriz, Iran is attacked by a mob, resulting in most of the Jewish community either being killed or fleeing.[3]
1830
The Jews of Shiraz are forced to convert to Islam.
1831
The prominent French-Canadian politician Louis-Joseph Papineau sponsored a law which granted full equivalent political rights to Jews in Lower Canada, twenty-seven years before anywhere else in the British Empire.
1832
Partly because of the work of Ezekiel Hart, a law was passed that guaranteed Jews the same political rights and freedoms as Christians in Canada.
1833
Clemens Brentano published The Dolorous Passion of Our Lord Jesus Christ According to the Meditations of Anne Catherine Emmerich. The "Dolorous Passion" is claimed to reveal a "clear antisemitic strain throughout",[4] with Brentano writing that Emmerich believed that "Jews ... strangled Christian children and used their blood for all sorts of suspicious and diabolical practices."[5]
1834
The 1834 looting of Safed was a month-long attack on the Jewish population of Safed by local Arab and Druze villagers. It was full of large scale looting, as well as the killing and raping of Jews and the destruction of many homes and synagogues. Before the attacks Jews made up over 50% of the population, but many of them fled to nearby cities which reduced their presence drastically.
1834
Jewish heroine and martyr Sol Hachuel is publicly decapitated at 17 years old in Fez, Morocco. She is executed for refusing to convert to Islam.
1835
Oppressive constitution for the Jews issued by Czar Nicholas I of Russia.
1838
The 1838 Druze attack on Safed was a plunder of the Jewish community of Safed by the local Druze during the Druze revolt.
1839
Forty-plus Persian Jews are killed and the entire Jewish community of Mashhad is forced to convert to Islam in the Allahdad.[6] Many of them practised Judaism in secret, which led to the Mashhadi Jews, whom
I'm tired I stopped at 1840 lol
You are right. But at the same time the Trolly's of the world have been arguing since 9/11 it is completely unacceptable to be prejudiced against Muslims for the actions of Islamist govts and non govt terrorist organizations. And I have never heard progressives argue that the IRI should moderate for the safety and well-being of Muslims worldwide.
So there is a giant double standard at play. There is no first principles going on here. It is just lizard brain tribalism.
