GOAT NBA Discussion: Biggest fraud poster: fallguy. Super AIDS Containment thread
Pippen also had worst-ever efficiency in the 93' Playoffs, which included the lowest advanced stats ever for a winning sidekick (PER, BPM, WS/48, VORP, TS).
So that's 3 title runs that Pippen had worst-ever efficiency
If you put Pippen on the Jazz and Horry on the Bulls who wins the titles from 96-98?
In the 96-98' Playoffs, Pippen averaged 17.6 on 41%, which included the worst shooting splits that anyone ever had (see previous post).. So Jordan won with the biggest bricklayer and lane-clogger ever - he won in spite of Pippen's worst-ever numbers... The Bulls were playing 3 on 5 offensively with Rodman and Pippen, which only works if you have the goat scorer to offset this.. The obvious point being made here is that Pippen could've been replaced by tons of guys... Detlef Schrempf, Michael Finley, Sean Elliott, Anthony Mason, and obvious choices like Penny, Stockton, Payton, Kemp, and dozens more.
Furthermore, the Jazz didn't run the triangle, so Pippen can't average 15 ppg.. Pippen was just an athlete/dunker/defender like Derrick Jones Jr. or Jared Vanderbilt, except he learned to get the automatic system points in the triangle.. Ultimately, Pippen lacked a break-down handle and couldn't create his own shot, so he was only capable of "flow" points that the triangle provided.. He would just be an athlete/dunker for Utah just like he was for Houston or Portland.
Finally, the Bulls 3-peat from 88' to 90' if you replace Pippen with nearly anyone remotely viable.. Pippen cost the bulls 3 titles from 88' to 90'.. Jordan only needs was a low-producing "pippen" to have the goat dynasty, so anyone that can barely scrape 20 ppg is enough for prime Jordan.. And there are many ways to skin a cat defensively, so simply getting some rim protection or athletic guards to replace Paxson would offset Pippen's defense.
Certainly, though Pippen would’ve been a massive upgrade to the garbage the Jazz were running out there from 4-10. Would’ve been enough to beat Seattle in ‘96 and push at least one of the finals to 7 games.
Replace Pippen with Stockton and Jordan would win 9+ titles from 88-98'.
Furthermore, the 98' Jazz swept Shaq's 4 all-star Lakers and Popovich/Duncan/Robinson Spurs.. They just couldn't beat Jordan.
But the Jazz were actually the only Finals opponent that DIDN'T have a much better cast than Jordan, especially at the 3 thru 10 spots... Jordan's other Finals opponents annihilated the Bulls at the 3 thru 10 spots - It isn't remotely close.
You should be pointing out how Pippen never reached peak Horry level ... 0/6 in reaching peak Horry caliber So the point is that it's a LOW BAR to exceed Pippen - anyone can achieve his pedestrian production... and if Pippen, Klay or Middleton was averaging 20 on a losing team, no one would know who they were - they would be like Horace Grant's twin brother that averaged 18 ppg
Because for a player you hate like pippen , u disregard his important defensive contribution while when it’s a player you like , you praise to a ridiculous level his defensive prowess (putting him number 2 all time) even tho his offensive contribution is terrible , worst then pippen ….
Horry ?
Even funnier lol
Replace Pippen with Stockton and Jordan would win 9+ titles from 88-98'.Furthermore, the 98' Jazz swept Shaq's 4 all-star Lakers and Popovich/Duncan/Robinson Spurs.. They just couldn't beat Jordan.But the Jazz were actually the only Finals opponent that DIDN'T have a much better cast than Jordan, especially at the 3 thru 10 spots... Jordan's other Finals opponents annihilated t
Exactly !
How strange you still praise shaq so high getting swept with good team and dishes Lebron so much with good team not getting swept ….
Another double standard .
You should be pointing out how Pippen never reached peak Horry level ... 0/6 in reaching peak Horry caliber So the point is that it's a LOW BAR to exceed Pippen - anyone can achieve his pedestrian production... and if Pippen, Klay or Middleton was averaging 20 on a losing team, no one would know who they were - they would be like Horace Grant's twin brother that averaged 18 ppg
You raise an excellent point about only peak seasons mattering.
Harden peaked at 48.2 points per 100 possessions. MJ was 0 of 15 in achieving that.
This obviously means that Jordan was not as good at scoring as Harden.
And I'm looking at 82 games, not 4 game samples.
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Comparing Reggie Lewis and Pippen as 1st options in the Playoffs:
92' LEWIS...... 28/4/4.. 57.0 ts.. 23.8 PER.. 0.177 ws.. 4.1 dbpm.. 2.6 obpm.. 6.8 bpm.. 0.9 vorp... 10 games
94' PIPPEN.... 23/8/5.. 52.1 ts.. 22.8 PER.. 0.149 ws.. 4.0 dbpm.. 1.6 obpm.. 5.6 bpm.. 0.7 vorp... 10 games
u disregard Pippen's defensive contribution while when it’s a player you like , you praise to a ridiculous level his defensive prowess (putting him number 2 all time) even tho his offensive contribution is terrible , worst then pippen ….
I never praised Russell's defense.. I praised his goat intangibles to break the color barrier.. We're talking about goat leadership, poise, charisma and clutch.
And again, Horry was a versatile and excellent defender, so there wouldn't be a massive decline on the defensive end compared to Pippen... if we upgraded a bad defender like Paxson to better defenders like Kenny Smith and Vernon Maxwell, this would offset the defensive gap between Horry and Pippen... Or we could upgrade the Bulls non-existent rim protection.. So Pippen's individual defense doesn't matter because there are many ways to have an equal or better defensive team without him.. For example, the Bulls had the #1 defense for the first 35 games of the 98' season until Pippen returned and they fell to 9th.
^^^ I said in my post that Pippen never played above a Larry Nance caliber, which means that Nance was the comparison, not Horry.. The only reason that I showed Horry's 95' Finals was to show that anyone can achieve Pippen's ordinary production - it's a LOW BAR to find someone to exceed Pippen, aka Horry - even Horry's best was better than Pippen's.
If Pippen, Klay or Middleton were averaging 20 on a losing team, no one would know who they were - they would be like Horace Grant's twin brother that averaged 18 ppg for the Wizards - few people know that Horace had a twin brother in the NBA named Harvey Grant that averaged 18 ppg.. So again, Pippen never played above a Larry Nance or Iguodala caliber, and never even reached peak Horry caliber, yet the winning spotlight inflated him to all-time status and media accolade.
Nance, Payton, Stockton, and Penny also destroy Pippen...
Or Alonzo Mourning....
Reggie Lewis (see previous post)... the "X-Man debacle" in the 92' Playoffs... 96' Finals... Many more...
all of these are CATASTROPHIC chokes - he's basically a bad player outside of the 91' playoff run.
You made my point by referencing an all-time great and all-time peak season like Harden... It isn't embarrassing to come up short in the regular season to MVP's like Wilt and Harden, but it's a joke to come up short to role players like Horry..
So that's my poin - it doesn't take an MVP to match Pippen's production like it does for Jordan.... As the horry example demonstrates, anyone can exceed Pippen's best production levels - it's a LOW BAR to find someone to exceed Pippen, aka Horry - even Horry's best was better than Pippen's.
Exactly !
How strange you still praise shaq so high getting swept with good team and dishes Lebron so much with good team not getting swept ….
Another double standard .
Lebron has more bad losses than Shaq:
* 2011 choke is worse than anything Shaq did
* 2 record losses with 2 all-star teammates in 14' and 17'.... And another record loss in 18' with an all-star teammate
* mental meltdown in 2010 - a historic embarrassment... Shaq was never this bad
* locked up in 07' and 08' Playoffs against the Spurs and Celtics... Shaq was never this bad
* lost in 1st Round with AD and Luka... Shaq never lost in 1st Round with top 5 teammates - no one did - only LeLoser
At least you admit that Jordan isn't as good as peak Harden at scoring.
"peak" is the playoffs, and actually the Finals, such as our Horry and Pippen comparison
also, jordan's numbers are from 87', so that's before any rule changes, while harden's include the flagrant foul change in 1990, and the hand-checking in 2004, and then the further hand-checking/forearm or "no impede" rules in 2017 (that exploded scoring).. Harden also achieved it with a baby brand of ball (20% assisted rate)..
And it's just regular season, otherwise, he isn't even a 30 ppg scorer in the playoffs - he averaged 30 in exactly 1 playoff run and 1 playoff series, while cracking 40 pts per 100 only 1 time - he's a joke.
Sorry for talking about Jordan in the GOAT thread. You are right, I'm derailing it.
We should be talking about a 4 game sample size in Horry's career. It's important in the GOAT discussion.
I mean lets not talk about Horry averaging 7/3/3 over a 4 game sample earlier in those playoffs in the same year.
I mean lets not talk about Horry averaging 7/3/3 over a 4 game sample earlier in those playoffs in the same year.
If Pippen had a viable peak capability that was scouting report-worthy, he wouldn't have to worry about bums like Horry easily exceeding the best he ever played.
Unfortunately, Pippen's peak capability was 20 automatic system points or transition, and less than 15 outside the system, while having worst-ever efficiency (can't shoot)... This means that any Tom, Dick and Harry can match him, such as Horry or Hughes.
Horry had a great series. Much better than anything else he did in his career.
Congrats I guess.
Means **** all.
Russell is the only exception to my rankings because he broke the color barrier, so I give him credit for the intangibles required to do that.. Due to the color barrier issue, Russell is impossible to rank, so I basically go chronologically with Russell, Wilt and Kareem at 2, 3, and 4.. I believe that they themselves would be fine with this ranking and rational
Russell is impossible to rank for you because u can’t justified in any way possible how badly he was in scoring lol …
Nothing else …
I never praised Russell's defense.. I praised his goat intangibles to break the color barrier.. We're talking about goat leadership, poise, charisma and clutch.And again, Horry was a versatile and excellent defender, so there wouldn't be a massive decline on the defensive end compared to Pippen... if we upgraded a bad defender like Paxson to better defenders like Kenny Smith an
Nah what you fail to realize is anyone can have a great game or couple of them .
What’s hard in basketball is too have a constant high quality of play which is what pippen show and not horry .
I mean Kobe is a much better scorer then mj because he wa able to achieve a peak that mj never achieve , a 80+ pts game .
See how small sample size means nothing ?
Obviously u don’t since it’s what you do all year long ….
Lebron has more bad losses than Shaq:* 2011 choke is worse than anything Shaq did* 2 record losses with 2 all-star teammates in 14' and 17'.... And another record loss in 18' with an all-star teammate* mental meltdown in 2010 - a historic embarrassment... Shaq was never this bad* locked up in 07' and 08' Playoffs against the Spurs and Celtics... Shaq was never this bad* lost in
No .
Shaq had terrible swept losses with great team and a masterfully choking job vs the pistons with 3 all time great vs 0 all time great players lol.
And let’s say it’s a tie ….which obviously isn’t but let’s say it is .
U got no problem with it when speaking with Shaq and put it in your top 10 .
Again double standard …
I never praised Russell's defense.. I praised his goat intangibles to break the color barrier.. We're talking about goat leadership, poise, charisma and clutch.And again, Horry was a versatile and excellent defender, so there wouldn't be a massive decline on the defensive end compared to Pippen... if we upgraded a bad defender like Paxson to better defenders like Kenny Smith an
And yet where is magic in your list ?
Far away ….and u out kareem in front of him ?
Ah yes. Always special cases and exceptions for players u don’t like much …
No .
Shaq had terrible swept losses with great team and a masterfully choking job vs the pistons with 3 all time great vs 0 all time great players lol.
And let’s say it’s a tie ….which obviously isn’t but let’s say it is .
U got no problem with it when speaking with Shaq and put it in your top 10 .
Again double standard …
To be fair it was Kobe that cost the Lakers the series against Detroit. Shaq was good. Kobe thought it would be a good idea to take 30 more shots in the series (and make 10 less) than Shaq.
Horry had a great series. Much better than anything else he did in his career.
Congrats I guess.
Means **** all.
In addition to Horry, many other bums have peaks that exceed Pippen's because Pippen's peak was low..
Pippen's peak capability was the lowest among notable 90's sidekicks, since he was the only 2nd option that was more of a defender and hustle player instead of a go-to player - Pippen was the only 2nd option that was a system player and not a real go-to player that could "go off" or dominate like every other 90's sidekick..
Every other 90's sidekick dominated the playoffs to carry their team to the conference finals or Finals.. i.e. Stockton dominated the 97' WCF to carry the Jazz to the Finals, or Porter dominated the 92' WCF, or Payton/Kemp took turns dominating various series... Pippen is the only guy that never dominated and was more of a hustle and system player.
No .
Shaq had terrible swept losses with great team and a masterfully choking job vs the pistons with 3 all time great vs 0 all time great players lol.
And let’s say it’s a tie ….which obviously isn’t but let’s say it is .
U got no problem with it when speaking with Shaq and put it in your top 10 .
Again double standard …
Teams that owned Shaq:
Pacers, Bulls, Jazz, Spurs, Rockets, Pistons
Teams that owned Lebron:
Pistons, Spurs, Celtics, Magic, Mavs, Warriors, Suns, Nuggets, T'Wolves
And again, Lebron's losses are more severe with 3 record losses, and the goat choke, and the goat meltdown, while also getting locked up twice in 07' and 08' Playoffs.
