2/5NL Navigating JJ four way and OOP

I snap fold here.

VGP should be super strong here betting this huge 4-way. If he has TT/99/77, so be it.

Gross spot.

My plan in this spot is to call flop and proceed with caution. It still seems like there is a decent chance that we have the best hand. VGP can't continue on the turn unless he has us beat or has a huge draw. He will check with his mid pairs and weaker draws and we can see what BF does. If VGP bets big on a blank turn, I feel comfortable folding regardless of what VBP does.

I think it would be reasonable to fold. Raising seems like the worst option but it still has some merit.

Yea, I feel like you could make an argument for all three. The tricky part is that VGP knows pretty much what where I'm at, and he could possibly make a move with a thin value hand against BF, who is really a total donk, while also trying to get me to fold an overpair.

Pre: 300BB deep, I guess I could see VGP calling your 3-bet with a wider than normal 3-bet calling range. He'll have position on you, and it will likely invite the 2 fish into the pot. It's debatable how wide, but maybe 55 or 66-JJ or QQ, ATs-AQs, partials of AK, maybe suited BWs, SCs, A5/A4s would be a reasonable starting point for the debate.

Maybe an argument could be made for 3-betting just a little larger from the SB? IP, I'd probably go $100ish if I was in position, so maybe $120-125. Minor point. Irrelevant to the main question.

Flop: Agree with a check. Gross spot. I'd go with the view that a VGP isn't going to bet that big into 3 players when checked to without a nutted hand or a HE draw. I guess whether you hold the Js or not might influence your decision a little, but I'm fine with folding and finding a less-gross spot.

Nobody that good cold calls 3bets but yeah. I think I'm folding here. There's no good turns in the deck, we're oop and by calling we'd just be praying it checks down and we win?

Sigh fold, especially with BF calling the bet. Gross spot, though. Just a terrible flop and action for JJ.

Time for a seat change 😉

i dont see how you can overcall, i just muck

As for the cold call I think you might be underestimating the fishy dynamics and the deep stacks here.

For what it's worth, the more I think about this spot, the more I like folding flop. Especially if you think VGP is the type of player who will turn a pair into a merge/bluff on later streets.

VGP bombing it on this board OOP to two whales is probably just indicative of a hand that can beat JJ.

I could see VGP coldcalling AA-KK and that being a good play in this situation. AsKs also might make sense.

Other than maybe with pocket pairs, I am having a hard time seeing how a "very good" player thinks it's a good play to call out of position against two fish for this big of a bet.

It's a bit of a puzzle what on earth the VGP has but I would not be feeling great about putting 300bb stacks on the line. Any reads on this player's behavior, and how you might be seen?

He sees me as a pretty standard TAG I think. I'm never making this 3bet loose against these opponents, so he knows I'm AQ/1010+ here. He's got over a 4k stack and the VBP also has over 4k, BP has 2k, and these are definitely the type of opponents you want to see some flops with, being this deep.

Fold flop he’s rarely bluffing.

I can see why everyone is saying fold flop, but let's not forget that you 3bet from SB preflop and then checked the flop. While we understand why you checked with JJ, the rest of the table doesn't. Your perceived 3bet range is now AK/AQ heavy (however fishy that sounds).

The BB can legitimately bet 88-QQ as well as perhaps some Ax♠ for value versus two weaker players this deep. What would you do in BB position with 99-TT after the 3bettor checks? There's an outside chance BB has KK+ but I think you can remove a decent chunk of these combos.

I favour a call/reassess turn. It seems somewhat wasteful, given how many turn cards will reduce your equity, but there's a reasonable chance you could reach showdown/possibly bluff catch v MP. Having the J♠ would help a little.

He probably has QQ+ and maybe some AKss if he's actually as good as you've described

You’re just describing the range of a very tight player

I guess I should add that VGP is a bit laggy, but has excellent poker instincts, can make big folds, makes big plays when he senses weakness, likes to make moves with blockers etc.

Very easy fold especially when one of the fishes calls. Even if they folded it would still be marginal.

DonÂ’t forget that BF isnÂ’t folding before the river, and will call the river with any pair higher than jacks or any two pair, and any turn cards other than a non-spade jack can beat H.

VGP isnÂ’t betting that flop with two non-spade overcards, and heÂ’s not folding any big draw to a suspicious 3shove on the flop. HeÂ’d fold TT & 99, thatÂ’s all. I think his most likely hand is a set; heÂ’s certainly not giving BF a free card with a set of 8Â’s on that board and 80bb in the pot already.

Uhh what? The fish calling makes this a more tricky spot. I'm almost positive I'm ahead of BF with my JJ here.

It's a lot harder to beat two players than one player, and this is the type of board to hit a bad player, so having him call makes it an easier fold. There are a lot more turns and rivers we now do not want to see.

I really don't want to put $1, 500 in with JJ here, but go for it if you think you are ahead.

VGP: “very good player” is not very good. A “very good player” might cold call QQ+ pre, yet leading QQ+ on this flop would be a punt in a 4-way pot with two players behind who could have smashed the flop (sets, two pairs, straights, big draws). He set-mined 55, 66, 88 pre (not very good), or overplays an overpair (not very good either).

Pre: Tricky sizing. In general, I would want to be HU postflop. Given the dynamic, going 3-way is the most likely outcome if you can’t find a sizing that gets one fold. Gut feel is to go bigger, 160ish to 180ish, trying to go HU to a flop.

As played: Flop is a c/f. Tbh this 4-way spot is a c/f >80% of the time. We need to flop a set or an overpair on a low non-connected board (22x / 33x / 44x) to bet/continue.

don't act this way at the poker table, it creates a bad atmosphere

I think this is a tough spot, but the one decision that seems difficult to justify for me is calling.

If we call flop, we go 3 ways to the turn with $1,340 in the pot and only $1,090 back. Unless we bink top set, basically every other card in the deck makes it even more risky to assume JJ is good (and if we don't have Js, then even that one might not be clean), especially since most things that aren't overcards are potentially making a straight or trips. It seems like a vain hope that VGP will let everyone off the hook and start checking it down, which would mean we are put right back to the question, $300 more committed, and with a worse runout.

This probably makes me lean toward folding flop, as getting in 300bb with JJ overpair on this wet of a board feels like a bit much.

Flop is just an easy fold. Your equity is terrible here against two players. The good player has QQ+ very often.