PAHWM: QJs in wonderland
1/3 NLHE 7 handed (2 players walking).
Table
We've been having a difficult session and are finally getting slowly back on track it feels. We're in for 1k and have 495$ in front of us (we've won a bit back from ~300$), we're 5 hours into our session and hoping not to book a loss, the game has been great and although we're a little tired its a Friday night and the room is quite loud and happening.
Our 2/5 didn't get off the ground so all the heavy guns came to 1/3 - but the whales and maniacs showed up before the sharks - so the game was very good for awhile - blind raising 100, double straddles to 12$ "Can we make this 5/10? Anyone wanna make this 5/10??, Or go 200 blind right now??".
Now one maniac and one whale have left and V - a profitable, studied, TAG - has sat down on our immediate left (game is still pretty good minus this).
How we got here
We lost one big hand with KQo when wimped out on 3-betting pre and called a maniac next to act in early-mid position for 25$ cold, hand went 7 (!) ways to Q-6-6 FD, maniac cbet 50 into 175, we trepidatiously call the small bet and another fish/maniac calls IP behind us, 3-ways to the turn brings and offsuit K (Qc-6c-6h-Ks), maniac 1 checks, we have an SPR of 2 and bet thick, maniac IP shoves, maniac OOP folds, we make the dreadful call and he shows 67s for flopped trips.
This is the only hand we've really had to play, everything else has been a simple raise and take it down pre or a cbet and take it down OTF. We're listening to progressive trance, trying to stay calm and in the moment, we've taken 200mg of CBD.
V
Young 20s white TAG grinder that plays an assortment of games, mostly PLO and 5-card Hi-Lo. Very studied and lives for poker. Drives an old beater car and lives with his parents...but is profitable. Plays as high 5/10. He's very player and table aware. Pre he has been playing quite tight at this table and is topping up his stack regularly as he's lost a few small pots. He lost the minimum earlier trying to trap a maniac with QQ just calling from BB when maniac flopped a flush and bet 3x pot, V snap folded his OP. He's been at the table about an hour and VPIP about 8-10%.
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V opens UTG to 12, folds around, we're effective at 495$ and see Q♥ J♥ from the BB....
Probably fold. Easier spots at a 1/3 table. No point playing HU OOP against an UTG open from a pro.
you want nits/tags/pros on your left because they will actually give you the least trouble, just fold when they do anything. What you dont want is an excuse to be playing pots IP vs them value owning yourself, trying to peel, etc, because they arent going to be making massive mistakes OOP vs you, get it? So this looks to be a good dynamic for you so long as you keep the pressure on the whales. You need to be isolating at every opportunity. You're gonna get 3bet every now and then by V but so what, he still has to contend with playing vs the maniac in a super bloated pot if he really wants to FAFO, plus sometimes you'll have the goods and just ship it on him, not to mention some call-worthy hands that do ok in multiway 3bet pots like PP's.
I'm explaining all this to you to help get your head in the game so when you look down at QJs you have a gameplan. Since your objective is to just play as many pots HU IP vs some fish, this is pretty much the exact opposite of that scenario. Now I think QJs is a bit too good to just toss from a single raise, so go ahead and call and just nut peddle in spots like this. Flop OESFD+ or give up, thats literally it. Go ahead and bleed 30BB/hr to him, it's fine, youll either smack the deck eventually or make it up on the backend vs the fish you're really targeting.
I think folding is a little better than calling. However, if I called, I wouldn't just nut peddle. That would be losing chips. Need to play the hand normally. OP is probably as good a player as villain or close.
Fold, rack up, go home, and go to bed.
okay nevermind. we fold.
V sounds like a nut peddler and the way to make him sad is to fold so he can win the blinds and put $4 of gas in his beater car to come back another day. (Nothing against beater cars, I respect that)
But I feel like there was a good amount of buildup in this post so maybe there's another hand or street to talk about that is interesting?
Yep just flat pre, no reason to 3-bet QJs vs a tight UTG. You’re deep and can play your hand fine post if you hit big. Just be ready to fold most flops, his range gonna be super strong here.
I disagree with everyone (surprise), this is a clear 3!. It isn't like V is targeting us. If he is good, he is probably opening a bit wider because of the whales and fish. So all we know is he has a hand he is comfortable playing OOP against whales and fish. Assuming he respects our game, he has a folding range when we 3! and our hand has reasonable playability post.
When confronted with a good player, I think it's a mistake to get passive. Stay aggressive, play your game. You might want to be more careful in borderline spots but QJs is clearly a continue that should mix between 3! and call. Because V is likely to be aggressive post flop, I lean towards 3! because getting a fold pre is a bigger win than against someone we don't respect.
PRE
We obviously vacillate between 3-betting and calling this guy. He's a fun player, aggressive, and worst case is we learn something. We elect to call 12.
Flop 20 - A♥ J♣ 5♥
We check to see what happens and V bets 30 quickly...we have 485 behind.
Well, we've identified one of the issues.
And funny enough, OP's last post here was at exactly 420. :p:p:p
100.
But now that we're here, and have flopped the 2NFD and a pair, and with something like a 6:1 SPR on turn if we just call, I think a raise might be in order. Despite V's ludicrous b150 cbet.
H blocks jacks, and even against AA, is only a 30/70 dog here. Calling is fine too, but H loses a lot of equity on a non heart, and I'd like to build a pot or win the hand now versus then.
I am going to off the path for a bit and suggest that the KQo hand from the OP is more deserving of a thread than this hand, so that the good posters can chew you out for how you played that. You needed to 3bet or fold preflop, for one thing.
As played, I don’t mind the call preflop (I would not 3bet, my decision is call vs. fold) and now as played on the flop I would actually find a tight but probably good fold. The reason why Villain’s overbet is so good in this kind of spot is because if we raise, we are just too likely to run into nutted hands like AA or JJ or AJ. And if we call, we end up in a spot where we’re unlikely to realize any implied odds, especially factoring in that a Q or J may not actually win the hand for us. So that leaves folding as the best option, and doubly true since we’re playing out of position against a tough player.
Just insane how bad you guys are. Call pf call flop. Ffs.
I would flat call the flop overbet.
The hand seems pretty standard so far.
Preflop you may want to mix some 3bet, but I would mostly call with this hand.
Flop, you can't do anything but call, imo.
Jesus, wtf is everyone on in this thread
flat pre, never a fold.
flop is also a call. board favours his range but we can and should be calling with a ton of hands here, so we are nicely disguised
yeah so call flop dont cr
I am going to off the path for a bit and suggest that the KQo hand from the OP is more deserving of a thread than this hand, so that the good posters can chew you out for how you played that. You needed to 3bet or fold preflop, for one thing.As played, I don’t mind the call preflop (I would not 3bet, my decision is call vs. fold) and now as played on the flop I would actu
if you are going to fold this flop then fold preflop.
I am going to off the path for a bit and suggest that the KQo hand from the OP is more deserving of a thread than this hand, so that the good posters can chew you out for how you played that. You needed to 3bet or fold preflop, for one thing.As played, I don’t mind the call preflop (I would not 3bet, my decision is call vs. fold) and now as played on the flop I would actu
if you are going to fold this flop then fold preflop. you actually want him to have AA in this spot so you can win a big pot if you spike hearts. if the turn is a heart, pot turn, jam river, win monies.
It looks like he has AA, maybe AJ. Hard for him to have JJ, as only one combination. He should be playing 55 UTG in a 1/3 game, but probably isn't. Hard for him to have a flush draw. Ah,Qh, and Jh are accounted for. Higher ones you are in trouble against are KhTh and Kh9h. He probably isn't opening a sc UTG to make a worse flush draw. A sc isn't usually going to make a strong combo draw that he could be overbetting.
You can't raise the flop as you have bad equity against a set or 2 pair. The overbet indicates he is strong. He is playing a little face up. His play is not so good, with a tight range UTG and overbetting the flop, you can get a good read on what he has. So raising or folding are terrible, so call.
It is a good situation. If you make a flush, it is not so disguised, but he is sort of face up as a strong made hand, probably AA.
So you pretty much know what he has, so call down, and donk fairly big if a flush hits. If a flush hits and the board pairs, don't bet and maybe fold.
if you are going to fold this flop then fold preflop. you actually want him to have AA in this spot so you can win a big pot if you spike hearts. if the turn is a heart, pot turn, jam river, win monies.
Yes, if we can narrow his range to hands that won’t fold when we spike a heart, we can do exactly what you said.
I am not sure we can do that. What I’m saying is that his range should have enough of those hands that raising is too dangerous, but not enough that we can take 5:3 pot odds. I’d be calling or raising a smaller bet, for contrast.
