USA Goes to War Against Iran
Time for a dedicated thread to the war.
How long will it last and what will be the probable outcome?
pick a laneyou said “so iran doesn’t want to end the war,” now you’re saying “of course they want peace.” which is it?and no, NAFTA isn’t “basically reneging,” that’s just you not understanding what you’re talking about. renegotiating a 30 year old trade deal is not even remotely comparable to breaking a war agreement, that’s a reach and you know itthen you jump to “ceasefires
what about reneging on the new 4 year old trade deal?
European NATO has over 150 minesweepers; the US has 4.The US military is built to project force and own skies. What's going on in the Strait is exactly what European NATO was built for. The deal was we come to one another's aid. And this isn't just Trump blabbering. Either Europe gets their heads out of their collective asses or there's a good likelihood the US is out of NATO a
have they even mined the Strait tho? I remember researching this near the start and reading about what you said its very correct. but is it possible irans ability to lay mines has been destroyed? they need specialized boats for that
China's involvement will be agreed with Iran. They wont be taking control of the straits by force.
They're not going to 'head over.' If and when the usa ****s off, there will be politics.
The new groupings including China, Turkey, Pakistan etc will in some shape or form be increasingly involved.
That's probably true. But there are assumptions I'm making. Namely that the Iranian regime is a rational actor, and that faced with the prospect of upsetting China, they'll do what China wants. Well that was basically Trump's reasoning too, just by different means. The other is that China means what it says re ending hostilities.
So running out my earlier hypothetical: what will Europe do if Iran refuses to open the Strait? I think the politicians will say they were opposed to this from the start but now we have no option but to head over there and the people will agree, ie, consent manufactured. Right?
have they even mined the Strait tho? I remember researching this near the start and reading about what you said its very correct. but is it possible irans ability to lay mines has been destroyed? they need specialized boats for that
My understanding is that Iran has a lot of mini subs that can lay mines with as well.
That's probably true. But there are assumptions I'm making. Namely that the Iranian regime is a rational actor, and that faced with the prospect of upsetting China, they'll do what China wants. Well that was basically Trump's reasoning too, just by different means. The other is that China means what it says re ending hostilities. So running out my earlier hypothetical: what wi
Can't compare China to trump. China is a major trading partner of Iran and they have a cooperation pact. usa is the hated enemy.
I can't imagine any scenario where europe decides to force the strait open. Manufacturing consent isn't the issue - there's no political will and it's far too difficult in practice.
I think my favorite thing about the trump true believers is their inability to reconcile a simple fallacy:
1. Trump said the early strikes pre-war completely obliterated Iran’s nuclear capability
2. Trump now is justifying the war by saying if no action is done, Iran would have a nuke by June
Now both of these statements are almost certainly lies, which makes sense, Donald Trump is a prolific liar. But even the trumpiest of trump supporters have to realize 1 & 2 are impossible to both be true so he has to be lying about at least one of them
European NATO has over 150 minesweepers; the US has 4.The US military is built to project force and own skies. What's going on in the Strait is exactly what European NATO was built for. The deal was we come to one another's aid. And this isn't just Trump blabbering.
Wrong and both these incorrect points confirm you're nothing but a Trump mouthpiece.
Oil prices jump again. Tell me more about how China and Pakistan will save us!
To be fair, using every single post I make referencing him to do nothing other than call him a rapist I don’t think qualifies as ‘discussion’
That part where I'm talking about possible social media addiction is in reference to you and others repetitively engaging him, along with the massive post counts
Instead of putting Elway on ignore like I did within days of first opening this thread about a month ago, you're all choosing to engage, endlessly, with someone who is either a deliberately obtuse troll, or serving no meaningful purpose to this thread
He embarrasses himself enough on his own. Nothing left to do but laugh and ignore. Others clinging to the toxic nature of communication, especially as time goes on, isn't exactly a good look either. It's basically TDS but for a weirdo living rent free in your head, unproductive, and definitely not healthy
(I only replied to one thing he said itt bc I saw it in a quoted post and thought it was laughably stupid and was going to make a post anyway with the rest of the content in said post)
As if you weren't ignorant of this:
So who in NATO is best equipped to deal with the Strait, the big blue water navy or the coastal ones? My guess NATO would rely on the same ones they did with the Gulf War or the ones dealing with it in the Black Sea right now.
As if you weren't ignorant of this:
So who in NATO is best equipped to deal with the Strait, the big blue water navy or the coastal ones? My guess NATO would rely on the same ones they did with the Gulf War or the ones dealing with it in the Black Sea right now.
Yeah the point you're ignorant about is not who is best equipped to deal with the strait. This really isn't a difficult one lol.
No, I'm just a realist. And that's the issue: Europeans can't face the reality of the the Strait not opening up. But if it doesn't what they going to do leave themselves at the mercy of Iran?
You show these people weakness and they'll pounce. And that's what Europe is doing right now. What are they going to do if Putin strikes Poland or Estonia? Call Daddy Xi to the rescue? This isn't binary: you can hate Trump or the US and not take sides with what is a greater evil.
No, I'm just a realist. And that's the issue: Europeans can't face the reality of the the Strait not opening up. But if it doesn't what they going to do leave themselves at the mercy of Iran?You show these people weakness and they'll pounce. And that's what Europe is doing right now. What are they going to do if Putin strikes Poland or Estonia? Call Daddy Xi to the rescue? This
Europe is in a tough spot with Iran, they need the strait open but they don't want to align with or condone the clown show taking place in America. Pretty bad when even needing to contemplate theocratic Iran or America when picking sides, but that is what Trump has done.
And lol Russia invading Poland, they don't want any of that smoke.
Oil prices jump again. Tell me more about how China and Pakistan will save us!That part where I'm talking about possible social media addiction is in reference to you and others repetitively engaging him, along with the massive post countsInstead of putting Elway on ignore like I did within days of first opening this thread about a month ago, you're all choosing to engage, endl
I know it's boring not to have someone on the other side to debate with in a politics forum but interacting with mongo is the nut low. I know luciom was extreme right but at least he was committed and read and even if you thought his views were vile, he argued in good faith with his primary goal not just trying to wind people up.
No, I'm just a realist. And that's the issue: Europeans can't face the reality of the the Strait not opening up. But if it doesn't what they going to do leave themselves at the mercy of Iran?You show these people weakness and they'll pounce. And that's what Europe is doing right now. What are they going to do if Putin strikes Poland or Estonia? Call Daddy Xi to the rescue? This
No you're just wrong about why NATO was created and everything after that is simply irrelevant. The strait was open and working perfectly fine before Trump decided to **** all his allies and start a war without telling anyone. To now pretend Europe is to blame for not cleaning up the mess Trump created in Iran is stupid.
you can hate Trump or the US and not take sides with what is a greater evil.
How about hating Trump, not the US, and not helping clean up the shitshow your dictator started without having people like you on 2p2 pretend NATO/Europe is ''taking sides with what is a greater evil''.
You show these people weakness and they'll pounce. And that's what Europe is doing right now. What are they going to do if Putin strikes Poland or Estonia?
They would invoke Art.5 of the North Atlantic Treaty, which is why Putin's not going to do those things. The only person encouraging him is Trump, with his continual hints at US 'decoupling' from Europe, a long-standing Russian strategic goal. But with British and French nuclear forces in play regardless of the Orange One's weird antics, Putin still can't go there.
Under NATO's Baltic Air Policing programme, Estonia is defended this month by four Portuguese F-16s, with four French Rafales in neighbouring Lithuania. These small fighter deployments form a tripwire, meaning any Russian attack on the Baltics is an attack on NATO inviting an all-NATO response. (And again, even if Putin's pal in the White House wimps out, Russia, with its fighting-age population, its military equipment and its economy degraded by the Ukraine war, can't go there.) As for Poland, which has much stronger armed forces than the Baltics, forget it.
I never said that's "why NATO was created."
Here's the gist of what I said:
European NATO has over 150 minesweepers; the US has 4.
What's going on in the Strait is exactly what European NATO was built for.
Context and words matter.
I've also said that blaming and shaming doesn't alter the current reality Europe is facing. Some people can't handle that.
European NATO has over 150 minesweepers; the US has 4.The US military is built to project force and own skies. What's going on in the Strait is exactly what European NATO was built for. The deal was we come to one another's aid. And this isn't just Trump blabbering. Either Europe gets their heads out of their collective asses or there's a good likelihood the US is out of NATO a
I never said that's why NATO was created.
Here's the gist of what I said:
Context and words matter.
Context and words matter.
Come on, John. You very clearly suggested that NATO was a mutual assistance treaty. It isn't. It's a defense treaty. If Macron went crazy, and with no provocation, dropped a nuclear weapon on Algeria, do you think Article 5 would require the United States to join the fight if Algeria put up any resistance at all. (And before you start bucking the hypothetical, I know that the situation with Iran is different than my hypothetical re Algeria. The purpose of the hypothetical is to illustrate the difference between what NATO actually requires and what you apparently believe it requires.)
Also, you didn't educate anyone on the fact that Europe has more minesweepers than the U.S. There has been detailed reporting on this point.
They would invoke Art.5 of the North Atlantic Treaty, which is why Putin's not going to do those things. The only person encouraging him is Trump, with his continual hints at US 'decoupling' from Europe, a long-standing Russian strategic goal. But with British and French nuclear forces in play regardless of the Orange One's weird antics, Putin still can't go there.Under NATO's
NATO isn't a sovereign entity. If Putin launches a few missiles at Poland is Poland going to declare war on Russia? Are they going to send their jets or missiles into Russia? Are France or the UK going to strike a nuclear super power in retaliation? I don't think so.
NATO isn't a sovereign entity. If Putin launches a few missiles at Poland is Poland going to declare war on Russia? Are they going to send their jets or missiles into Russia? Are France or the UK going to strike a nuclear super power in retaliation. I don't think so.
Don't be deliberately stupid. NATO is a defensive alliance. Any attack by Russia against a NATO member is an attack on NATO, with all that that implies.
Come on, John. You very clearly suggested that NATO was a mutual assistance treaty. It isn't. It's a defense treaty. If Macron went crazy, and with no provocation, dropped a nuclear weapon on Algeria, do you think Article 5 would require the United States to join the fight if Algeria put up any resistance at all. (And before you start bucking the hypothetical, I know that
What I'm saying is what would stop Putin from doing just what Iran has been doing attacking other countries in the region with missiles or drones. Tripping Article 5 doesn't actually do anything.
