Player lies at showdown / winning cards touch muck but are retrievable
This is a home/underground room, and everybody is friendly and knows each other.
1/2/5 Five Card PLO, eight handed. TLDR at bottom.
Three players in the hand. Seat 7 is all in on flop, pot is ~$1,000. On turn, Seat 5 checks, Seat 8 bets all-in for ~$300, and Seat 5 calls.
Seat 8 immediately says, “Queen high flush.” Seat 5 waits many seconds and asks, “Do you really have a queen high flush?” Seat 8, while looking at their hand, says, “Yes, I have a queen high flush.”
In the meantime, the dealer has squared the muck/burn with the corner of the bottom card (might be the cut card) sticking out slightly. Seat 5 tosses their hand forward, face down, and one card touches the bottom card sticking out of the muck. Seat 5’s hand is 100% identifiable and the dealer has not touched it.
Seat 8 turns over their hand and they do not have a flush. Seat 5 grabs their cards back to show bottom straight, which is the winning hand. Seat 7 has top set, which is the second-best hand.
What is the ruling?
TLDR: Player lies about hand (twice, once to a direct question) at showdown, winning hand has touched muck but is retrievable and 100% identifiable. Other player is already all in. Ruling?
(Seat 5 knows they should have shown their hand, blah, blah, blah.)
House/Host Rules .. but whenever I'm around a Player must prove any verbal declarations at Showdown in order to get the pot pushed. Yes, it's difficult, especially in PLO to know whether or not the Player mis-read their hand or not in order to assess the severity, if any, of a warning or penalty.
I 100% agree with this. Absolutely.
However, players often muck their own cards. If a player declares but doesn't show and the other player mucks his hand, do you still wait for thr declaring player to show?
...
Someone tried to argue with me that saying this violated OPTAH because I was letting people know the declaring player hadn't shown yet, but I strongly disagree with that view. I think saying it prevents angles and makes for a cleaner game where the best hand at showdown wins.
Lots of dealers, in my experience in various locales, will say, "Show me a winner" when players start to fart around at showdown. This is especially true when players start to play this dumbass game of chicken where they don't abide by the order in which they're supposed to show their cards down.
I play in an underground/home game and people not wanting to lay their hand down at showdown is one thing that gripes me to no end. If I get to showdown I just lay my hand down. I have been playing with these guys for years, so I am not giving up any information. We could probably play 5 or 6 more hands an hour if everyone just showed their damn hand. Sounds like OP is in same situation, just show your hand and no one can angle you. So I really don't have much sympathy.
What was so infuriating this hand was the guy stated his hand, I (yes, I'm Seat 5) looked at him and asked him directly if that's what he had as he was looking at his hand, which was off the table fanned out in front of him, and he "confirmed" his Q-high flush. I almost always table my hand at showdown, but I believed him. Just stupid on my part. He's a nice guy, but not actually trustworthy, which I should have known. I didn't think he'd stoop that low.
It was a total cluster. Seat 7 kept the ma
Apparently not.
So you got cheated out of over $1000 by the host and you're going to give them another chance?!?!?!?
You should never go back again. I doubt the game is that juicy that you can afford to give away that much money. If they are friends, they aren't that good of friends that you can't do without them. If the host invites you to another game, just decline. If the host asks why, just say, "fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."
Apparently not.
So you got cheated out of over $1000 by the host and you're going to give them another chance?!?!?!?
You should never go back again. I doubt the game is that juicy that you can afford to give away that much money. If they are friends, they aren't that good of friends that you can't do without them. If the host invites you to another game, just decline. If the host asks why, just say, "fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."
I didn't say they were friends, I said it was a friendly "home" game. Home is in quotes because it's more of an underground game, but you must be invited. I'm giving them another chance. They paly ROE regularly, which I love, and they are eight minutes from my house 😉
It's no excuse, but I know the host needs the money way more than I do, and I think he felt stuck because he was in the hand and the other guys were screaming -- it was nuts. He's a pretty quiet, laid-back guy, and he looked like a deer caught in headlights. He should never have left it up to the dealer, though, and he realizes that now. That dealer is clueless. I will always show my hand from now on. Of course, I've said that before and always have until that hand -- it was just so wrong of Seat 8. Seat 8 isn't a regular in that game, but I've played with him for years in other games, and while he's not the kind of guy I would lend money to, etc., I didn't think he'd flat out lie like that. Maybe it was the smoking...
Fun story: One night he was up about $3,000 in a 1/2 NLHE game and it was just him, my husband, and me left playing. We kept telling him to go home a winner, but he wanted to keep playing -- we were happy to oblige. He left broke.
I think the 'declared' part is fine .. just leave out the 'shown' part.
A bit of a stretch, but you would never say "Two Pair declared, but there's a four-liner/four-flush out there."
Depending on the Room tone I might call the Floor over and ask if I need to table a 'Declared' hand even if it's the last live hand. Always touchy as a Dealer when you seem to call out a Player for their actions as it may affect your income. While using the 'shown' language above may be the best way to call a Player out without calling them out there's still a pot out there and we should do our best to limit how that pot is claimed.
I've always held the idea that there's no more 'Poker' at Showdown, only awarding the pot to the best hand. GL
If a player declares but doesn't show and the other player mucks his hand, do you still wait for the declaring player to show?
Yes .. when I'm at the table I will press the issue with the Dealer to have it be shown/tabled, even if I'm already out of the hand.
It's not so much I'm calling out the other Player, it's to let the table know that it's going to be different if I'm in that same spot. GL
I 100% agree with this. Absolutely.
However, players often muck their own cards. If a player declares but doesn't show and the other player mucks his hand, do you still wait for thr declaring player to show?
If I was the dealer, I would do what hopefully most dealers would which is protect his "mucked" hand from the pile while waiting to see if the guy actually has what he said he does. Otherwise it opens him up to continue his angle shooting. Then I would remind the player who mucked to wait until he shows since players do make mistakes and misread their hands from time to time.
If I was the dealer, I would do what hopefully most dealers would which is protect his "mucked" hand from the pile while waiting to see if the guy actually has what he said he does. Otherwise it opens him up to continue his angle shooting. Then I would remind the player who mucked to wait until he shows since players do make mistakes and misread their hands from time to time.
It's not the dealer's job to coach the players.
I see this stupid angle all the time, apparently it's a fan favorite in the PLO scene, second only to someone deliberately showing a loser or extremely weak value hand slowrolling the other 2 cards for the nuts. While I have yet to be burned by it it just slows the game down so much while I sit there and make them show as they giggle the entire time about it.
I mean what you mean. He took all the cards from muck and burn and squared them up into a neat "deck," except for a small corner of the bottom card, while we still hand our cards. He's a terrible dealer. He pulls in call/raises as they are made, and if you have money in front of you, like if you are the BB, and someone raises to, say, $15, he'll tell you the raise is $13. Drives me nuts. I had to teach him how to count a pot in PLO, but at least he caught on when he finally believed me. Most of
Ew. It's all my dealer pet peeves in one. Does he also point at every player when it's their turn to act and announce even checks? Because if so this would be my nightmare dealer lol
For real though, I think that in general when we don't protect our hand, we leave ourselves open for shenanigans to happen. So I never let go of my hand until I verify what it is the other person has. I also had a 600~ dollar mistake from releasing my hand too early, so I know how it feels. Just live and learn I guess.
Major babe?
I like "Prove it.".
If a player declares but doesn't show and the other player mucks his hand, do you still wait for the declaring player to show?
Nope. You believe him? That's ok with me.
Correct sir.
It’s the how that Didace has an issue with.
Protect muck is def good. Push back cards maybe. Tell player to wait to see is too far I believe.
Telling table, there is nothing until hands are tabled is where I think dealer should go.
