I call villians river bet and he mucks, am I in my rights to ask to see his cards?

You can ask. Some places will honor your request but his hand will be live. So if he discarded the winner erroneously, he will win and claim the pot. So you risk that.

Note this is considered poor etiquette unless there is a reason, beyond I paid to see. The intent is to assist stopping collusion. Many rooms no longer have IWTSTH rules or limit your requests because it can easily be abused and slows down the game.

Just pay attention to flop, bets, etc., and you will get a feel for how he plays. You shouldn't need to see his hand. Don't show yours until he mucks, though.

You have the right, but don't use it -- it's bad for the game, it's bad for your image, and you want to keep him on your good side 😉

Knowing the 2 specific cards is not information that will help you long-term.

V is forfeiting any claim to the pot. You win. Be happy. 😀

The vast majority of the time it's a missed draw or betting with complete air. You can probably determine which based on board texture. Don't embarrass them by making them show. Stack the chips and start calling them down light in the future.

The whole "paid to see" thing always sounds like it was picked up from a Hollywood understanding of poker, like how my relatives think that reads can be hidden by a good "poker face" or that betting strong and leaning forward are "tells". It's very Wild West cosplay. Most of us on these forums pay for our equity in the pot, not to see cards, so we're going to have trouble relating to that perspective despite any technical correctness.

You are within your right to ask to see. However the cards are still live, so tread carefully. The juice isn’t worth squeeze normally.

Appreciate the perspectives.

Probably not worth the delay/drama in the long run.

Yes and it would be very bad form.

Also, though rare, you eliminate the bluff-call.

may be i am living on another planet, but so be it ... how in the world does he have the right to see the cards???

this is a cash game, no?
the guy mucked, case closed.

I would hope he misread his hand and you make him turn up the winner.

In some rooms you have the right to ask and in some rooms you don't. About 25 years ago you would have had the right to ask in every room.

This came up about 17 years ago at Foxwoods where a player asked to see my hand. It upset me and I asked if it was legal. The Dealer said "if he thinks you may be colluding he has the right to ask" and the player said that he thought I might be colluding which made me very angry. A few players at the table who knew me said it was ridiculous and the Floor came over and made the Dealer turn over my mucked hand (which was not a winner). I was livid but then when I found out about the history of the rule I understood that it was a legal request. The Floor also then said that the player was not going to be allowed to ask again to see the hand.

My historical research led me to believe that there were two reasons for the rule. The first was that you paid to see the hand. The second was that over 100 years ago before automatic shufflers there were people who played with cards up their sleeves. And it could be important to see if say there were two A♠ in the deck this hand...

In general in the 20/40 LHE game that I used to be a Foxwoods regular when a player was called on the river and knew he had a losing hand they would say basically that they had lost but often wouldn't muck their hand. In those cases the player would then say "A high" or "no pair" or "I missed" and then the other player would turn over their winning hand and the guy would muck. One time at the Borgota (another place I played a lot at) a woman said "I missed" and I turned over 33 and she said oh I win and turned over 44 on a 567TT board. Which of course made me furious but I said nothing and then never turned over my hand against her until she turned over her hand or mucked her hand and the dealer took it.

The reason it is critically important to not be asking to see another players hand (if it is legal) when they muck is so that it won't happen to you when you muck a losing hand. It not only helps the player who is asking but it also helps all the other players not in the hand.

The other thing to understand is that there are rooms where the winner doesn't have to show if the loser mucks their hand. But the hand must end up in the muck pile. This is true in tournaments now and the losing player does not have the right to ask to see the mucked hand anymore. But there likely still are rooms in cash games that demand that the winning hand be shown.

There was a Dealer at the Borgota who never put the mucked hand in the muck pile. One time a guy mucked his hand after being called and the other player waited until the dealer moved the mucked cards to the muck pile. Which never happened. So after about 15 seconds the guy reached for his mucked hand and turned over a straight which he had no idea he hit (he was on a flush draw). I went to talk to a Floor and while I was gone it happened again with the same players. The player who lost twice because of the dealer got up and left (with his frined who was also playing) and they basically never came back. The Dealer was removed from the high stakes area (and hated me for the rest of the time I went to the Borgota).

There was one player at Foxwoods who hated me and lied about what he had ("A high") so i turned over my pair and he turned over his set and won the hand. So I never turned over my hand until he turned his hand over or mucked it and it was collected by the dealer and put in the muck pile.

There is a rule 'I Want to See That Hand' (IWTSTH). It used to be extremely common. The idea was that if someone did something completely out of line (esp. multiple times) you could invoke this rule to spot collusion. (I am not saying this was the only reason or that it even is a good one). Note that originally anyone dealt into the hand could ask. Some places became those with cards at showdown who called all bets.

People over time came to feel along the lines of 'I paid for the information, so I want to see it. Some people try to use it to tilt others by making them show bad bluffs or whatever.

This angers some players and slows down the game. So many places got rid of or limited IWTSTH. Some places now make it a floor call if the hand gets shown (now that really slows the game down). Some only allow it if you can specify a reason (and thar often REALLY tilts someone). Some places try a X times a night/session/hour approach.

BTW, technically a player should never be allowed to muck, where the meaning of muck is place into the muck in unidentifiable manner. Prior to showdown, player folds to action and the dealer mucks. At showdown, player discards and delear mucks. More important in tournaments but applicable in cash games. This is one reason why dealer should always protect the muck (the more important one is to keep players from digging into the muck.

I have never played in a casino (to my knowledge) where the people in the hand at showdown can’t request to see all players hands. But maybe I just haven’t been paying attention because I literally never asked

They certainly can ask but quite a few rooms these days will just ignore them and we challenged the dealer says something like 'oh, sorry, did not hear you but too late now because the cards are not identifiable'. A PA way of not honoring the rule even if it is still a rule.

Even the old RRoP discussed the requests could be abused and thus revoked.

Here is the rule from RRoP v11
Showdown
...
5. Any player who has been dealt in may request to see any hand that was eligible to participate in the showdown, even if the opponent's hand or the winning hand has been mucked. However, this is a privilege that may be revoked if abused. If a player other than the pot winner asks to see a hand that has been folded, that hand is dead. If the winning player asks to see a losing player’s hand, both hands are live, and the best hand wins.

There was a poster years ago that was interested in the development of the rules of poker and collected rule books. His research showed that in the 1920s and 1930s, the rules were that if you got to showdown, you had to show you cards no matter what. Bob Ciaffone reported that the late 1940s, his mother and her friends were allowing people to fold without showing. The IWTSTH rule replaced it with the idea of allowing people to check if people were cheating, mainly in tournaments. Foxwoods one of the leaders in getting that rule removed.

Everything else you said is accurate venice, but I'm very interested in that last line. Foxwoods is one of the only rooms in the US that has a rule requiring the last unmucked hand to show at showdown. That would seem to contradict any mission to abolish IWTSTH — it makes the invocation automatic for all players and observers, whether or not they were in the hand, and further ratifies the right of players to see that hand.

We are talking about the player who bets the river And in calls discards. He isnt the last one with cards. Does not claim pot. Does not show. With IWTSTH his cards get shown. Wo they don’t

I mean if it was up to me we would either get rid of the rule unless there was suspected cheating, in which case it would be up to floor discretion, or every hand anyone at showdown would be forced to turn over their cards with the best hand winning.

IWTSTH/requests to show all hands are absolute cancer wherever they are allowed (and popular).

I have never understood this. I don't mean that of criticism of you, more of me. If it is a LAG player, by definition doesn't it mean they are playing more loosely than should be expected? How is one random hand going to better define their range? By definition they are already playing too many hands preflop and they are too aggressively bluffing those hands postflop.

What do you really learn if they show down a random hand that they shouldn't be playing pre-flop or they show random air that they shouldn't be betting with postflop?

By definition, don't you already know they are going to show up with unexpected hands in most situations?

Put a different way.....

As someone who can play extremely loose and aggressive when I think it is warranted, there are plenty of times where the cards simply do not matter.

For example, my call preflop might not have anything to do with my cards. I call simply because I have position on two players who I think will put lots of money in post-flop with mediocre holdings. I consider them tight sticky. They are tight enough pre-flop that their ranges are tight and clearly defined, yet if they hit, they will be extremely sticky postflop and call off way to much with a hand they shouldn't.

Also, if a person is playing a bit loose preflop, they need to be aggressive postflop to make up for the -EV of playing too loose preflop. Basically I need to pick up extra small pots that no one else will fight over.

So even though it is rare, it happens more often than you think, there are times where I will call preflop with a stupid wide range in position. Have it check through on the flop and check to me on the turn and I think ok, maybe a small bet will pick up this pot, so I bet. Then I get called by someone I read as light. Then they check the river, I need to figure out if my air can win the pot with a river bet providing pressure. If they are light and tight, maybe it can. If they have a reason to be sticky, I can't. It is a read, pure and simple.

The cards I have simply do not matter. If I have to show down, I am a loser, pure and simple.

If the bet is called, what is seeing my cards going to show you? I am genuinely curious? While I might not be playing any two, it isn't too far off. Neither tha flop call or the river bet we're made with the strength of my hand in mind?

Again, this isn't necessarily normal and/orcommon, but it isn't rare at certain tables with certain players either.

Your post was excellent. It explained why the rules are what they are, furthermore, it showed how you learned about the rules and changed and adapted to them as you learned. Good stuff. Absolutely.

I am picking nits, but my one nit to pick would be to say that the reason it is critically important to not be asking to see other players hands is the same reason we all learn not to tap the glass.

There is no need and if you are truly better than them then there is nothing to be net gained from seeing their cards. If I am better than my opponent, I don't need to see their cards to put them on a good enough range. Would seeing their cards slightly help me improve the range I put them on? Sure, maybe occasionally. However, for every little gain I get by refining my range of their cards, I piss them off, even if slightly. Players get irritated when they have to do things they do not want to do. By making them show a hand they wanted to straight muck, it pisses them off, even if slightly and subconsciously.

Why am I trying to even slightly irritate a player I have a decent read of their range?

If anything, I think it is generally better to play to their ego and talk about the hand afterwards. If a player bets the river and I call and he mucks, if I really care about refining my range I will talk to them. Say something like "OH, you dirty dawg, you missed your draw and tried to bluff me?" Laugh and maybe they respond, even a demure response can tell you if you were right or not. Maybe they tell you directly that they had absolute **** and thought they could get it past you.

Don't irritate people unnecessarily.

I think the idea is if they show up with total garbage air no pair not even a backdoor draw on the flop that’s definitely more significant than them showing up with a backdoor draw that turned equity and blasted off.

But I think these can sometimes be bad inferences, because if you are dealing with a good lagtag and you’re a tighter player he might look like a maniac at times but really is exploiting some kind of tendency in your game, as an example

never heard of this rule before, but appreciate the info from you all.

one more thing why it's a bad idea in live games (besides from the stuff already mentioned):
the lag/whale/whatever who is forced to show his loosing hand might easily be embarrassed by this (he has to show a weak ass hand, a bluff, or something like that).

the one thing i don't wanna due is bite the had that feeds me, no?

Wow lots of good feedback(and histroy) here, I played with the LAG guy I mentioned again-he was slightly tilty becuase he was racking off and I caught him again, I thought if I asked to see his shitty hand I could put him on monkey tilt by embarrassing him.

I chose to follow most of the advice here and did not ask. I do not want him to avoid my table in the future because I made him look stupid.

I think studying to become a better player is always the preferred option versus trying to get an edge by acting like an asshole and making everyone around you uncomfortable.