I call villians river bet and he mucks, am I in my rights to ask to see his cards?
I did pay to see them, so to speak. I have been playing for many years and have never had anyone ask, so I assume he has a right to muck even though you called?
Reason I ask is I face off against a LAG player and I am trying to get a better feel of his range vs position and he mucks against me in this situation a couple times a session, info would be useful.
I mean if it was up to me we would either get rid of the rule unless there was suspected cheating, in which case it would be up to floor discretion, or every hand anyone at showdown would be forced to turn over their cards with the best hand winning.
IWTSTH/requests to show all hands are absolute cancer wherever they are allowed (and popular).
The only time I'm asking to see the hand is if the opponent flashes his cards to his neighbor as he's folding.
The only time I'm asking to see the hand is if the opponent flashes his cards to his neighbor as he's folding.
That is a completely different rule. That is the 'show one, shoe all'. There is (imo) zero bad etiquette for invoking that one. A personal pet peeve of mine. I will ask every time on that one but (almost) never on the IQTSTH case.
I wouldn't ask for either.
In tourneys I've heard some floors say they will only force showing an attempted muck at showdown if you suspect collusion.
Put a different way.....
As someone who can play extremely loose and aggressive when I think it is warranted, there are plenty of times where the cards simply do not matter.
For example, my call preflop might not have anything to do with my cards. I call simply because I have position on two players who I think will put lots of money in post-flop with mediocre holdings. I consider them tight sticky. They are tight enough pre-flop that their ranges are tight and clearly defined, yet if they hit, th
Are you really so ignorant that you do not know what your hand can show me? It can show me what you think of me as a player.
Are you really so ignorant that you do not know what your hand can show me? It can show me what you think of me as a player.
Do you really think that is what I am saying consistently? Seriously..... don't be dumb.
My point was that there are weird corner cases where it wasn't planned, I just found a spot on the fly where a bluff would be profitable long term, so I changed tracks. That means showing up at showdown with air or some crazy hand.
Besides, in general, I try and show my hands even when I don't have to thinking it encourages others to show their hands as well. As a decent player, I think I will learn more from the information given to me than the information I give up.
Whenever a hand is shown, there is information given out on multiple levels. Interpreting this information correctly is what differentiates winning from losing players.
I never show my hand unless it's against my husband (so people know we are not colluding), and I never ask to see anyone else's (unless they are being a complete ass, but I haven't come across that yet).
Showing your hands gives away much more information than you should ever be giving away for free. If you need so see someone's hand for information when they have mucked, you are not a good enough player yet. Start studying.
Put a better way that calms the heat.
Sometimes players show up with weird stuff for many reasons.
If a player makes a river bet and instantly mucks when called, what do you really learn about what he thinks about you that you didn't already know? It is clear he was bluffing (instant muck), what exactly are you going to learn knowing what the exact cards are that he tried to bluff with?
It is obvious that he thought you could be bluffed off of the pot on the river. Do his cards matter?
Tldr the entire thread, but it seems like most people here are confusing two separate rules and circumstances.
The OP has nothing to do with the IWTSTH rule. That rule is regarding someone (live at showdown or not) asking to see one or two hands because collusion is suspected.
In the OP, there is only the hero and one other player, so he can't possibly suspect collusion. Different rooms have different rules about this, but none of them matter for this hand.
In the OP, the person who called a bet can ask to see the betting hand in any place I have ever heard of. But as others have pointed out, there are at least two good reasons not to make the request, and I have only ever asked once or twice, when the other player had been doing the same thing or otherwise being a douchebag.
I've never heard you can force someone to show a betting hand that was called so we have vastly different experiences.
I have been in rooms that (in a cash game) allow you to demand to see the last aggressors hand, and ones which do not. Some that allow you to ask to see all hands that made it to showdown. Some that require you to be in the showdown yourself. There is not a single rule that all rooms follow.
Generally all these rules are referred to as IWTSTH rules, whether or not collusion is suspected. In some rooms it is because you "paid to see" the hand.
FWIW, the TDA rules are very clear about who can demand to see, which hands they can demand to see and when, and when the TD has discretion.
18: Asking to See a Hand
A: Players not still in possession of cards at showdown, or who have mucked their cards face down without tabling, lose any rights or privileges to ask to see any hand.
B: If there was a river bet, any caller has an inalienable right to have the last aggressor’s hand tabled on request (“the hand they paid to see”😉 provided the caller tabled or retains his or her cards. TDs discretion governs all other requests such as to see the hand of another caller, or if there was no river bet. See Illustration Addendum [adopted 2013].
[...]
IA
Rule 18: Asking to See a Hand
Example 1: NLHE. 3 players remain in the hand. There is no betting on the river and no player is all-in. At showdown Player A discards face down and the cards are pushed into the muck by the dealer. B tables his hand, showing trips. C pushes his cards forward face-down. B may ask to see C’s hand because B has tabled his cards. However, B’s request is at TDs discretion; B has no inalienable right to see it because there was no bet on the river thus he did not “pay to see C’s hand.” Neither A nor C may ask to see a competitor’s hand because they have neither tabled their cards nor retained them.
Example 2: NLHE. 4 players remain in the hand. On the river A bets 1000, B calls, C raises to 5000, and D, A and B all call. No player is all-in. B tables his hand, showing trips. D instantly discards face down and the dealer kills his hand into the muck. C begins to push his cards forward face-down. Both A and B have an inalienable right to see C’s hand on request because 1) they paid to see it as C was the last aggressor on the river and 2) both A and B retain their cards. D (who also called C) relinquished his right to see C’s hand when he discarded without tabling. All other requests in this situation are at TD’s discretion, such as B asking to see A’s cards (the cards of another caller).
I never demand to see a mucked hand, because it's going to piss people off. Generally my approach is to keep the game moving. I will sometime show when they should go first just to keep it moving.
I don't think the edge you obtain by grinding out every possible advantage is worth more than getting to the next hand and generally having the reputation of a reasonable person. If everyone thinks you're a massive jerk, I guess you might get the advantage of tilting people, but also the dealers and floor will be delighted to rule against you in edge situations. Also I just don't want to be hated by every reg in the room.
If I never saw an opponent’s hand on the river again, I’d be a happy boy
When someone asks to see my hand, I throw it so it mixes into the muck. Oops.
It's only happened maybe twice in thousands of hours of play and the villain has no legit reason to ask.
Knowing the 2 specific cards is not information that will help you long-term.
V is forfeiting any claim to the pot. You win. Be happy. 😀
The vast majority of the time it's a missed draw or betting with complete air. You can probably determine which based on board texture. Don't embarrass them by making them show. Stack the chips and start calling them down light in the future.
Initial sentences are wrong, but no needling a fish to leave is always a bad plan regardless if you have him staked out.
Put a different way.....
As someone who can play extremely loose and aggressive when I think it is warranted, there are plenty of times where the cards simply do not matter.
For example, my call preflop might not have anything to do with my cards. I call simply because I have position on two players who I think will put lots of money in post-flop with mediocre holdings. I consider them tight sticky. They are tight enough pre-flop that their ranges are tight and clearly defined, yet if they hit, th
While not that rare a play among the better players, I still see something like it a couple times a week. While I won't ask to see your cards myself, I am very interested in what you have. Which comes down to a major reason some people use the rule:
I want to figure out why you made the play you made. Nothing more complicated than that.
It's only happened maybe twice in thousands of hours of play and the villain has no legit reason to ask.
I've had people show their cards to their neighbors, then when I invoke "show one show all" they attempt to muck their cards so they cannot be shown. That is a legit reason, and those players are terrible for the game, actually cheaters IMO.
Who would you rather have at your table: The guy who flashes his cards to his neighbor or the guy who invokes "show one show all" at him from across the table?
One is many times more terrible for the game than the other.
I've been in the poker industry for 15 years now. I can think of 2 times that the "show one show all" rule has been requested by a player at 5-10 NL or higher. Both times, the other players at the table were in disbelief.
On the other hand, the "show one show all" rule is enforced by 1-2 players as an automatic reflex. I doubt they even care about seeing the cards. They just like to enforce rules.
Who would you rather have at your table: The guy who flashes his cards to his neighbor or the guy who invokes "show one show all" at him from across the table?
One is many times more terrible for the game than the other.
The guy I described is a cheater who I definitely don't want in my game.
