How Scummy is This Move?
1/2. I'm not involved in the hand. V in this hand I guess fancies himself a pro. He plays about 10/8/1. Just a damn nit. He's mid 20's and I played with him for 8 hours and he never said a word.
In this hand, it gets to the river with about $300 in the pot. The board is AK995 no flush. I'll call the other player Hero (again not me). Hero checks the river with about $80 behind. V jams. Hero says "I guess I can't fold" and tables his hand AK. Dumb move, but it is what it is. Dealer only hears fold and quickly mucks Hero's cards and starts pushing pot to V. V quickly slides his cards into the muck before the dealer can.
Hero says, no I call. They call the floor, look at the tapes. Somebody asks V if he beat AK and he shakes his head no. Floor while waiting on the tapes to be reviewed asks V if he is willing to split the pot back to hero. V says no. Of course no remedy can happen so V keeps the pot.
I was kind of furious at the scummy behavior. Am I right to be or is this just tough luck on Hero for being unclear with his action.
Was unclear with his actions. Didn't protect his hand. Hopefully he learned a lesson.
What are the tapes gonna show? If they look at it they'll see he clearly folded his hand face up while facing a bet so that wouldn't of changed anything.
I don't really like the floor asking the villain if he's willing to split the pot. It's not like he tabled his hand, how do we know he didn't have a 9 and just wanted to needle the hero by saying he would of been good? If the two players agreed to split the pot that's different than a floor asking him when he hasn't even seen his cards.
Hero says "I guess I can't fold" and tables his hand AK. Dumb move, but it is what it is. Dealer only hears fold and quickly mucks Hero's cards and starts pushing pot to V. V quickly slides his cards into the muck before the dealer can.
This dealer needs to be retrained so as to:
1. Learn to not insta-muck someone's hand HU on the river.
2. Learn how to protect the muck so that no players are pushing or pulling cards into or out of the pile.
Hero couldn't act normal for three hundred milliseconds, and I'm supposed to be upset with Villain.
Saying, "I guess I can't fold" and tabling his cards is not unclear to a competent dealer paying attention.
I deal about 50,000 hands a year and I like to think I'm competent. If I'm on my A-Game on 99.9% of those hands then that means there's 50 hands per year or 1 hand per week where I'm off my game.
Maybe the guy in seat 1 already folded and is distracting me with a bad beat story. Or the whole room is shouting because the home team just scored a touchdown on tv. Or my push is late and I'm cranky and hungry.
Players - protect your cards, your actions, and your money. As a dealer I'm trying to run a fair and fun game but my eye isn't on the ball 100% of the time. Don't throw your money away because you weren't on top of your game and you were expecting the dealer to bail you out.
I'm a little confused by this question. Are you just checking to see if the poster knows?
Because I agree with him, the dealer should always be protecting the muck, especially at showdown when his stub hand isn't doing anything else. I can describe how if that is a question you really want answered.
Having said the above, with things happening as they did, there really is no recourse.
Hero didn't make his action clear, and didn't protect his hand. Dealer thought he folded, and mucked his cards. Villain (probably scummily) mucked his own hand to ensure it could not be turned face up to fend for the pot by some weird floor ruling. As played, the only option is to give the pot to the Villain and warn the Hero to use clear terminology when making a bet and to protect his hand.
If as the floor I were confident the Villain was angling to win the pot on this technicality, I might warn him. If he's a serial angler, I would 86 him for the day or longer. Players are not permitted to put their cards into the muck themselves, that is all the justification I would need.
Dealer maybe gets a small KITN for not paying adequate attention to action, not protecting the muck, etc.
I'm a little confused by this question. Are you just checking to see if the poster knows?
Because I agree with him, the dealer should always be protecting the muck, especially at showdown when his stub hand isn't doing anything else. I can describe how if that is a question you really want answer
The dealer here believes that there is one live hand and is currently pushing the pot to Villain according to OP. If the stub were still in their hand, then that would be cause for and subject of retraining!
Hah that is a fair point, I must have misread the order.
Mumble, mumble, mumble, fold.
If that's what the dealer and V heard, not scummy, dealer was fine.
Are we sure this wasn't an angle?
Hero shows a better hand and V says "I didn't call."
Does nobody think V is shady for either lying saying AK beat his hand or more likely telling the truth and keeping the pot due to essentially a dealer mistake and other player not protecting his hand?
Being shady and protecting himself look the same here, so we have to be okay with it. We can't demand that Villain exposes himself to the angle just to prove that he is not shady — that would unfairly shift the responsibility away from the guy who found a five-way combo for being a dumbass.
The rules offer so many protections to Hero in this spot. He forewent all of them. My duty to not hit you with my car stops at your insistence on playing chicken.
What is missing in all this is that Hero did not put money in to call the bet. I think the ruling is good because this could be an angle by Hero. TDA states that if someone is unclear as to what their action is, they take the risk of being misinterpreted.
Ah yes, the old 'flip my hand over to get a read on my opponent' trick. Hero probably saw D'Neg do something similar on tv a thousand years ago and thinks it's the bee's knees.
I would argue that Hero is the one that fancies himself a professional 1-2 player. Villain being a nit is irrelevant.
If, when facing a bet, you don't put any chips in the pot, you expose your hand and don't protect it, and you say the word Fold out loud...what do you expect to happen?
I'd like to think Hero learned a lesson here, but I suspect ego will get in the way and he'll deflect the blame.
Floor asking villain to split the pot is beyond ridiculous.
Ah yes, the old 'flip my hand over to get a read on my opponent' trick. Hero probably saw D'Neg do something similar on tv a thousand years ago and thinks it's the bee's knees.
I would argue that Hero is the one that fancies himself a professional 1-2 player. Villain being a nit is irrelevant.
If, wh
Hero may have been angling but it didn't seem like it. He was a total rec and pretty friendly. The fact he had AK on a AK99x board no flush facing an $80 all-in into a pot already $300 makes me think he was not angling.
Villian 100% fancied himself a pro (who knows maybe he lives a low cost lifestyle grinding 1/2). Never said a word all night. When he left dropped his chips into a bag.
Listen, I either give the whole pot or would split it in pretty much every instance where it is questionable, but I’d have to be 100 percent sure that dude called here before I gave him a nickel. He didn’t say call, he didn’t protect his hand, wtf do you want villain to do?
I don't know why the button mucked his own hand; I would have held on to it to make sure it's clear I was the last player with cards, so I doubt that was an angle.
Regardless, the other guy gave up his cards while facing a bet. Even if he had said "call" while doing it, he's show boating and asking for trouble.
The object of poker is to make money. We make money in part by making fewer mistakes than our opponents.
The supposed hero in this story made a mistake. It's not the supposed villain's job to protect his opponent.
You clearly don't like the villain's tight play and unsociable demeanor. But that doesn't mean he did anything wrong.
If I had heard what hero said, and if I could not beat AK, I would've given him the pot. But I don't play poker for a living.
I don't know why the button mucked his own hand; I would have held on to it to make sure it's clear I was the last player with cards, so I doubt that was an angle.
If the floor considers a reversal, then the most likely outcome for if:
- Villain still has cards: "Villain, show us your hand."
- Villain does not have cards: "What's done is done. Hero, don't call by saying 'fold' wtf."
It's an interesting spot, but Villain is positioned well for the ruling he wanted: Dealer believes that Hero folded, Dealer has mucked Hero's hand, Villain's hand is the last hand to have been mucked, Villain's hand is the only hand to have not been mucked by the dealer, Villain has been pushed the pot by the dealer.
lol at the assignment of the "Hero" and "Villain" titles in this story.
