How Scummy is This Move?
1/2. I'm not involved in the hand. V in this hand I guess fancies himself a pro. He plays about 10/8/1. Just a damn nit. He's mid 20's and I played with him for 8 hours and he never said a word.
In this hand, it gets to the river with about $300 in the pot. The board is AK995 no flush. I'll call the other player Hero (again not me). Hero checks the river with about $80 behind. V jams. Hero says "I guess I can't fold" and tables his hand AK. Dumb move, but it is what it is. Dealer only hears fold and quickly mucks Hero's cards and starts pushing pot to V. V quickly slides his cards into the muck before the dealer can.
Hero says, no I call. They call the floor, look at the tapes. Somebody asks V if he beat AK and he shakes his head no. Floor while waiting on the tapes to be reviewed asks V if he is willing to split the pot back to hero. V says no. Of course no remedy can happen so V keeps the pot.
I was kind of furious at the scummy behavior. Am I right to be or is this just tough luck on Hero for being unclear with his action.
81 Replies
I will note that only one hand was actually shown for the cameras. That should count for something at showdown.
I do not disagree completely.
That said, is there any responsibility to the villain to clarify the action before auto-mucking?
Let's flip it around. If the dealer pushed the pot to hero after the auto-muck, does the villain have any recourse?
I just want to note that in a showdown situation, only one hand was revealed. That should have some value.
To put it a better way, if I am villain holding A9, and the Hero says "I don't know how I can fold here" and shows AK, but I hear "mumble mumble fold mumble" and see him show his cards, do I have any responsibility to clarify the action before mucking?
If the dealer heard the action correctly and pushes the pot to Hero does the villain have any recourse?
It definitely should have, if there had been a showdown.
There had been no action by hero.
If the dealer had heard what he said, he should wait a few seconds to see if hero wants to call, and then possibly move slowly to muck his hand if he never says "call" or moves his chips.
Agree with chillrob. "That should count for something at showdown" is naturally true, but we are not at showdown by consensus, so showing one's cards to the camera has as much value as any other face-up fold. We don't favor a fold over a non-fold just because the fold is shown.
I guess most people disagree. I will close my comments by saying:
The people at fault in the hand:
1. Hero for being ambiguous and not protecting his hand.
2. Dealer for acting way too quickly in a large pot and a tabled hand.
That's it. V is not at fault.
But I still think he's scummy b/c he was the one who made the situation unreversable by quickly putting his hand into the muck. No grinder I know does this until chips are shipped. It's not a natural reaction for somebody who knows what they are doing.
How shipped do you want his chips to be.
If he was trying to pull a fast one, why would he say he couldn't beat the AK hand? Might as well lie and say he had the better hand.
His opponents cards are in the muck, the pot is headed his way, what's to clarify?
This kind of actually occurred to me except I was villain and it was an honest mistake.
I tanked and mistakenly said 'i guess i can't fold and in the same motion i mucked my hand, and what i actually meant was i actually can not call.
I have worked as a poker dealer and the real answer is calma from all parts villain, hero - and dealer.
Dont table your hand or muck your hand until dealer says showdown and make sure its showdown - 1.
Dealer needs calma and to not do anything hasty before everything is confirmed - 2.
You got time, there is no stress - make sure everything is clear.
that's my 5 cents.
Never made it to showdown. “Hero” never called.
Now IF hero had said call or put out the calling chips, maybe there is a case we are at showdown. If floor is convinced H did not fold but did call, then we are at showdown and V self muck makes a difference because now H has the only tabled hand. Regardless of what H would have tabled it was the winner even if it was 2-3.
But since H never called we are never at showdown. If we were, dealer mucking H cards would not matter since a tabled hand can not be killed. But none of this matters as the call was never made so no hand was tabled at showdown. That H should his hand before folding does not matter.
Playing 1-3 today. I'm in Seat 3, and I'm at showdown with Seat 4. He tables 88, I table 87s for the straight in a $200 pot. The dealer takes my hand, presumably to place it next to the board, when he turns it upside down.
I shout, "STOP. I HAVE A STRAIGHT!"
He freezes, and then turns over my hand, and apologizes.
I can't be certain anyone else realized what happened until I shouted.
If I was too slow or stunned to shout until the cards were buried, what's the likelihood a major casino would review the tapes if no one else clearly saw my hand?
Your scummy conclusion logic is still not supported. V self mucking did not make unreversable. Quite the opposite. If floor somehow ruled that H had in fact called, the H has the only tabled hand. Dealer mucking a tabled hand at showdown does not kill it. A tabled hand at showdown can’t be killed by dealer mucking it. So V self mucking only could have hurt him. What made things irreversible was H not protecting has hand.
In my experience the likelihood is 100% since I have seen it done multiple times AND I have never seen a major casino not check the cameras. I have even seen it happen when a player asks a couple of hands later even though protests are not allowed once the next hand starts.
I so much hate when dealers do this. I'm not giving you my cards until you're pushing me the pot, or have at least killed every other hand. If the other players can't see my cards, tell him what I have.
No dealer has ever even tried to pull my cards from me (in a cash game). It sounds like Always Fondling relinquished control willingly, which I recommend against.
What a really weird thing to think.
I am so confused. Why is that a weird thing to think.
If your cards were forced from your hand, then that would warrant its own post, or at least an aside on this one. wtf.
Like, the notable thing about that story is not that the dealer misread your hand lol.
Did the dealer rip the cards from you hand? Describe how you were protecting your hand when you did not relinquish control.
From the hero's perspective there was clearly a showdown. Now as rule nerds I fully agree that it wasn't clearly a showdown and there is plenty of room for confusion, but it doesn't change the fact that hero clearly thought there was a showdown.
If I am floor I am not sure who I give the pot to, but I am just pointing out that there definitely was confusion and that only one hand was clearly shown and the other mucked intentionally by the owner.
I disagree.
If dealer clearly heard what was said they should clarify the intent of the hero. Literally explicitly ask if he is calling or folding. Dealer is assuming action and villain is freerolling by insta-mucking a losing hand.
This is correct and I was jumping to conclusions by blaming villain. That said, villain had a clear opportunity to freeroll here. There is confusion on what his opponent did and he instantly mucked to take advantage of that confusion so it couldn't be reversed or clarified.
Back in the day when the Imperial Palace existed and still had poker they had a policy where at showdown the dealer was supposed to take the winning hand and put it next to/above the board to prove it to the cameras before pushing the pot.
This meant a player had to relinquish his hand before being pushed the pot. That was policy. Given the variability of dealer skill this occasionally resulted in the dealer killing the better hand. When the floor was called, most of the time they got it right, but I was occasionally surprised how often the floor blamed the player for not protecting their hand when it was literally casino policy for the dealer to take the winning hand from the player and place it near the board.
If that was the rule, then the dealers should definitely kill every other hand before taking the winner's cards.