Difficult spot deepstack 5/5 vs action player

Yeah, since both you ISO’ing and the 3 bettor have AK and 3bettor also has AA/KK someone would have to be totally crazy to find a bluff raise there. I think I’d also let it go on the flop, the line is way underbluffed.

I think I'm calling turn and check calling river.

Folding turn seems insane.

This is a close spot vs normal abc reg, but did you guys read the whale description? This guy could have 72o or lots of silly stuff.

You beat K9 and random bluffs and an over valued Ax hand. It's too hard to tell what to do from what you posted.

On pen and paper it looks like a fold.

From GTO assuming the player raised UTG instead of limped it's just a fold pre and it 3bets like 5% of the time with your hand.

This is 200bb though and not sure if it factors a rake so it's a close spot pre.

I'd run it though a solver and see what it says as the answers you get on here are gonna be too vague.

Solver is basically completely useless in this spot. The preflop ranges are way too far off and I doubt CO will have a raising range here otf.

If you want to approach it from a theoretical perspective you could simply say my calling range otf is AK, Kx, and then figure out how many combos you call relative to the betsize on the turn/river.

But I don’t think even that is very efficient decision making because it’s 5/5 and a super isolated weird spot where 90% of the field won’t find enough bluffs and the 10% that does you will know it because they’re maniacs.

That's interesting.

When you fold, show the king, and his jaw drops, but he doesn't show, I'm more inclined to think you made a good fold, he had you beat, and he's shocked / disappointed you didn't pay him off. He'd be less likely to want to show you a better hand, rewarding your decision when he'd rather be punishing you.

Had you folded the best hand, I'd think he'd be more likely to show you a worse hand, for advertising value, maybe to needle or tilt you, etc.

The only reasons I can think of why he wouldn't show you a worse hand would be as a courtesy, which doesn't seem to be the mode he's in, the way you described him, or because he was embarrassed he made a terrible play, but there again, embarrassment doesn't seem to be a driving factor in his current mental state.

Going back to your pre-flop sizing - one of my main frustrations with 1/3 was that it very often seemed like a 4x-5x open would get 3-4 callers but everyone would fold to a 6x-7x open. I started employing a limp-3B and overlimp-back-raise strategy in those splashier games. I wonder how this hand may have played out if you over-limped and iso'd with a back-raise pre.

As played, when you open 8x, and then just flat the SB's 3B pre, your range on the flop looks pretty capped at some marginal strength Kx holding, like K9s-KJs, and maybe KQo. If you rip it in on the turn, seems like you'd be making it easy for V to play perfectly.

1) Don’t ever show big folds

2) Raising turn and missing out on all his river bluffs is a disaster.

I think people are less elastic than you would think to your iso size, and to the extent you get cold callers with trash ranges, that isn't as bad as it seems. Just have to play a sound multiway game.

I would for sure iso KTs but 5x imo is fine in position. 6-7x out of position.

Bold is not a good reason. I could see doing this if there were 1-2 flush draws and plausible open enders/double gutters out there, but it doesn't look like there are any high equity bluffs.

Do you think you will get Ax to call? Worse Kx that might check back river? Those could be okay reasons to jam turn.

This Is important. I already saw the result so my opinion might be biased, but against 2 whales I'm calling and handling the cooler. But what Is most important Is that if you show that fold they Will try to run you over when you are deep. If i lost i would just had rebuyed AND keep going

Yeah I would jam turn for a few reasons. First of all I think if this opponent is bluffing this spot there is a chance he will just shut it down on the river unless he gets there, and he might just call off something like QJ QT JT because he's stuck a bunch of money and hates folding draws. He will just gamble with me if he has equity he's already made that pretty clear. Most importantly though, and what I did not account for in this hand, this opponent has every Kx in range (even off suits down to K2o probably) and there is a zero % chance he's folding trips to a shove. River J Q A we chop with all weaker Kx and he will have 3 other outs to win. Probably best just to stick money in now and make life easier. Only drawback as others mentioned we will fold out some of the random nonsense bluffs that may jam river if we check call turn. I will agree that it's quite close because keeping in the stuff with 0% equity is highly advantageous.

Agree that it's not great to show big folds in general, I was just trying to see if I could get some more info since I decided I was folding anyway. I did forgot to add in the result that after I showed the king and folded, one of the other players at the table peeled the river and it was a jack. The whale told me later that this wouldve been a bad river for me. I assume this either means that he had weaker Kx and we were chopping or he had QT and made a straight. Also the other whale in the hand who 3bet out of the blind told me had AQo which definitely makes sense.

How can you add this in on page 2 days after your original post? Is this just post discussion revisionism? Why would you only tell us this info now?

Don't love LRR KTs in this dynamic because of our basically non existent fold equity, would probably just overlimp call this hand vs a single raise if I choose to play it this way. In this type of game the LRR strat would simply be AQ+ JJ+ varying a little bit based on the action we're facing, but that's where id start.

Didn't read the whole thread, but if you are playing KTs this way pre because these are certain types of players, you should basically never call flop and fold turn on this board.

This isn't a defense of the LRR from EP suggestion. My comment about it above was a specific response to this:

My takeaway from your comment (bold face, specifically) was that your open sizing was based on the general splashiness of the table, especially the two whales, and what I would expect to be the other players' desire to get into hands with those two guys specifically.

I've been in those sorts of games, trying to figure out how big to open if I want the whale(s) to call, but don't want everyone to come along when I'm OOP. If and when I figure there's no way to open, and get called by the whale(s), and NOT end up playing a bloated, multi-way pot OOP, I'll start implementing a LRR strategy, to attack the dead money in the pot and punish my opponents for their passive play.

So, my comment above was somewhat rhetorical, just thinking out loud - had you instead over-limped UTG1, how might the pre-flop action have played out, might you have had a good spot to back-raise over an open from VIP1, or VIP2 in the SB, or perhaps another player looking to iso from LP? If so, how might that have changed the flop action?

Let's say you over-limped, VIP1 makes it $25 in the CO, SB makes it $120, UTG folds, and it's back on you. If you're 500bb deep, might you back-raise 4B to $300, iso'ing the SB?

I would guess VIP1 folds pre, when SB can still 5B. SB probably folds, but maybe calls, and probably checks to you on this flop.

I understand that KTs may not fit into a UTG1 limp-4B range here. Maybe not anywhere. But these guys seem like they're screwing around, far from GTO, so maybe KTs is a hand we can include in the bluffs portion of whatever that range looks like in this game. Seems like it might have good properties - easy fold to a 5B, might smash the flop, but easy to release if not.

I would imagine a limp-4B from EP probably has more fold equity than simply opening UTG1, and is more likely to lead to playing heads-up and IP post-flop than calling the SB's 3B and inviting the CO to call behind.

I dunno. I'm just spit-balling.

I can't imagine folding turn to a steaming, stuck whale who normally plays a lot bigger

He could easily have a smaller Kx, and all sorts of other holdings.

We can re-evaluate on river.

Other posters here realize deep-stacked against whales is where we should make a lot of money right? Not fold near top of range with trips.

I think its a good fold, whales love showing regs when the reg makes a bad fold.

Oh and yes like everyone says, dont show your big folds ever.

It's not that big of a deal that you showed a big fold to a recreational player. The reality is that people don't adapt their play that much. Recreational players aren't thonoing aboit how to exploit poker players while they take a shower. If players do start drastically overbluffing, we can start trapping and bluff catching more. And sometimes you promote an environment where people share more information, and if you are a winning player, chances are you benefit much more from the sharing of information than your opponents do.

But more important than any of that is that if you are a winning player, especially a pro, you maintain a friendly atmosphere. Not one where every decision is clearly a short term + EV choice on your part. Recreational players are your customers - treat them in a way that keeps them in your games and that gets you into good games.

I disagree about showing your hand. I play with these kinds of described "whales" all the time and a lot of them are just there to have fun, and they don't care about money. They get their enjoyment out of bluffing people (especially the ones they consider good players) out of big hands. They for sure will know you're gonna be easy to bluff, even if they're a non-pro recreational player.

I don’t think the big problem is that H will be easy to bluff, yeah sure it could hurt H for like a few hands but his bottom line will relatively be the same like Mlark said.

I dont show big folds to recs because if it is the right fold and often time it is, the whale would’ve known that he couldn’t get paid off in a spot if the position were reversed he would’ve immediately got stacked. This will hurt him mentally and he will realize , damn these guys are really good and im not, wtf am i doing at this table? Why am i playing this game? I should just quit poker and do something else with my time.

I go back and forth about showing bluffs and lay-downs. Superstitious me doesn't want to challenge karma or the poker gods to put me in my place.

Against a loose-splashy whale, I probably wouldn't. If he thinks his value bets won't get paid off, even when we have a very strong hand, he might start bluffing huge every time we're in a pot together.