PAHWM: KK vs limp raiser pre

PAHWM: KK vs limp raiser pre

Newly opened table, Horseshoe Vegas, 2/3, 8-handed, everyone has ~$500, which is max buy. I've never played vs. anyone here.

1st and 2nd hands, I'm in blinds and fold out to small bets. Small pots get taken down post flop.

3rd hand, I bet $15 from But with TJsu, blinds + a limber fold.

4th hand, I bet $15 from CO, and again, I scoop the blinds and a limber. The table is playing tight.

5th hand, V1, middle-aged black woman (MABW) who hasn't played a hand limps from UTG+1. All folds to me, and I bet $15 from HJ with KK. BB calls, and V1 raises to $50.

Limp raise from early position by MABW, who I have no read on? Smells of AA, but I can't fold KK. I probably appear to her as loose aggressive after 3 pre bets in 3 hands, so maybe she views me as reckless and might limp raise lighter.

I do pause to consider what she thinks and my options. I could raise, but if I'm ahead, she'll fold and I won't maximize a premium hand. If I'm behind, I can get away cheap to her reraise.

Do I bet, fold, or raise?

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31 March 2025 at 05:59 AM
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by Niemand k

With all due respect, preflop is the most obvious 4bet in the world, ~110-120 .
Then, if V 5bets or shoves, you MIGHT consider folding if you have a really strong read on her (personally, I would never fold KK against an unknown).

With all due respect, it's your money, so spew it away as you see fit.


A middle-aged woman is the first person I would call or fold to preflop. I should know because I am one. However, I'm more aggressive than most and would do this w/ AK, AQs, JJ/QQ, but not much so early in the game vs. someone who is basically unknown to me -- and I usually just raise first in.

AP, I call pre and probably call the flop, but that's about it unless she bets less than $100 on the river, then it's a decision.


I know in this solver era that everyone is too sophisticated for reads, but this is where they make some sense. How does she have her chips stacked. Did she just look at her cards once, or has she gone back to look at them. Did she count out her chips one or two at a time or did she smooth cut them? It isn't definitive, but it gives evidence whether she's an experienced player or not.

I'm more inclined to call someone who looks like they've played a lot.


by Nh,gg. k

Isn't the answer to your first question, answered by: "What does a 2/3 Vegas MABW, who we know nothing else about, besides she's folded the first few hands, L/RR small UTG with?" Oh, and her sizing is definitely non-standard. In my limited experience, this is just about always KK+. Maybe AK too, but they usually open then shove it, hoping to see 5. Do they do this with 99-QQ vs just opening it or open-calling?

Hence my question about why is V's range expanding on the flop. And if it's not e

I'm not positive your questions which seem to be directed to me aren't in fact rhetorical. Seems like you already have an answer in mind. But whatevs, I'll play...

I mean...it's a $hlt spot with KK, no matter what we do pre or post. If we 4B pre and she jams, are we just folding, or do we level ourselves into calling, because MAYBE she's over-playing QQ or JJ?

So our choices are 4B-fold pre, 4B-call a 5B-jam pre, fold pre to her limp-3B, fold flop to her c-bet, fold turn if she barrels on a brick, or fold river when she jams, or just call the whole way.

I hate all the choices here. If we're going to fold at some point post-flop, I'd rather just fold pre-flop. If we're not folding at any point, I'd rather 4B pre and call off a 5B jam.

I don't think this is how we're supposed to think about the game, but sometimes I just think about which is going to make me hate myself more - folding KK pre, or calling off four streets expecting her to turn over AA.

I think calling the whole way is going to tilt me more than folding KK pre, because if I fold KK pre I can tell myself I made an expert hero fold because she always and only limp-3B's AA, whereas if I call the whole way I also know she almost always and only has AA.

We can talk in hypotheticals, about potentially turning KK into a bluff if the turn or river is a Q, J or T, but let's not. We're never doing that. If we wanted to get OOL, we could have done it pre. She's not folding AA because we start blasting off on a Q, J, or T. If we turned a set, she's just paying us off.

It's also contradictory to flat with KK, hoping she has TT-QQ, and then jamming on a Q, J or T.

I dunno. I think we flat called pre to set-mine. We didn't flop a set. We thought her range was mostly just AA pre. I think we can just fold to her flop c-bet, and congratulate ourselves on avoiding a cooler.

We have to be consistent with our logic. We flatted pre in the hopes that she would slow down or we'd hit a set. If we're expecting her to pay us off if we make a set with KK, it's contradictory to think she's going to fold because we might have made a set with QQ/JJ/TT.


I'm glad to see there's arguments both ways and I wasn't absolutely stupid.

I call the $75 making the pot $265

Turn = 3463

She doesn't pause and fires $100.

Surely the turn didn't make a difference for either of us and she's keeping it cheap.

Call, fold, raise, shove?

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We have position so there’s really no value in raising.

If we put them on only AA, then we should have folded flop. I think they’re wider than that and I’m not folding now. Call turn, call river


This really is a tough one. She most likely has AA, but it's down to a table read. If I were V, I'd keep firing w/ all my hands. It's really hard to put you on KK. But she could be completely different from me.

FWIW, if H had raised to ~$120 pre, I would have shoved AK.


I call making pot = $465

River = 3463J

On the remote chance she has JJ, I let her catch up. But I still think she has AA. She insta fires $150 so she has no apparent fear I have JJ.

If I call, I'll have roughly $140 in my stack. A call of $150 to win 615 is too cheap to not call...I think.

Fold, call, shove?

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Yuck. Just all around gross hand. Many players would have just gii pre, which I guess makes it easier than where we are 😉 I might have sigh-folded the turn, but now that we are here, I don't think I can fold, although I really want to. I see no reason to raise (probably better than calling, but I don't care), so just sigh call.

I played a hand once against a very tight player. He 4bet me, and I absolutely knew he had AA, but I couldn't fold KK, so I did the worst and called. Flop was K high, and I did the worst and shoved another $300 or so. Lucky for me he couldn't fold AA, although he "knew" I had KK 😉


Yuck. Just all around gross hand. Many players would have just gii pre, which I guess makes it easier than where we are 😉 I might have sigh-folded the turn, but now that we are here, I don't think I can fold, although I really want to. I see no reason to raise (probably better than calling, but I don't care), so just sigh call.

I played a hand once against a very tight player. He 4bet me, and I absolutely knew he had AA, but I couldn't fold KK, so I did the worst and called. Flop was K high, and I did the worst and shoved another $300 or so. Lucky for me he couldn't fold AA, although he "knew" I had KK 😉


Sure, call. Why not? Still lost less than 4!/call.

Java's point about doing this with AK (though I think the average Vegas middle-aged woman is less aggressive) is why I can't get away for 165 bb. Particularly if I've been running over the table to that point. Make it 3-400 bb, and that's different. Going to ROFL if this is either a chop or a multi-barrel bluff with air.

Haven't forgotten replying to Doc, will get to it soon.


The way Deke has teed up the debate here, I'm also somewhat anticipating a surprising reveal, or one that leaves egg on someone's face.


Call pre
Call flop
Call turn
Call river


You get to decide who has egg on their face. I posted this hand bc I thought it was me, but maybe not based on the comments that have largely been to call all the way.

Some reads are bad; some indicators don't always hold true. Her LRR was not the obvious hand.

I called the river, and she proudly showed QQ. I perhaps was suffering from MUBS.

My buddy, who is at best a break even 1/2 OMC, said I should have shoved on the flop. So I've been doubting myself.

She played another half hour, very few hands, and left with a small stack. So I don't have a good evidence to know if she would have called a flop AI or not, but I'm leaning towards she would have. But I think that's results based thinking that I let ~$140 sneak away.

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Sometimes you have to go with your read, and it was legit -- she just happened to have one of the few hands you could have stacked her with (maybe).

I think the only hands you beat here are AK and QQ, and I'm not sure she continues the way she did w/ AK.


Thanks, Java. I appreciate your analysis.

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Anyone know the best way to get egg off one's face?


She has AA some of the time and that’s why we never raise post flop.

Sometimes she gets scared and river goes check check. And sometimes she doesn’t have aces, while other times we flop top set.


Hand is played fine. Mubsy thought process notwithstanding

Always worth adding 5-10% spaz to any low stake I know villain’s range. And then recognise that relative and absolute hand values are often very different for them too

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