4bet pot against tilted fish

You very conveniently left out that I said "in these types of spots" (4bet pot vs a loose tilted villain with QQ on AA963). I never said I'm always checking back rivers if I'm folding to a raise.

I was responding to your post in this thread, so I understand what spots we're talking about and it remains terrible.

i mean id fold now. 150 is too big for what you're trying to accomplish with a river bet imo. you really want to choose a size where she gets flustered and embarassed or angry about having to fold getting like 5:1 and flicks it in with whatever. its also alot easier for her to spaz raise vs like a 1/5 psb than 1/2. why do you think your hand is face up? if anything your hand looks like how bad people play AA / Ax lol.

the most interesting part of the hand is how polar you're supposed to be vs anyone reasonable (KK is like 80+% flat in theory here pre). at 200bb, even btn vs bb you are flatting QQ > 50% of the time. so like again the entire reason for your line is she's bad and going to spaz out somewhere. i think even if you think shes too loose pre there's alot of ev to be had by just flatting so you need to be confident that you're going to do better in the 4b node to want to do this. i don't have much of an answer for you for whats best vs her but its something to think about.

My assumption is that she doesn't have many weak Ax which may be inaccurate. But if I'm wrong, and assuming she never folds worse, and assuming we always fold to a raise, aren't we hoping that she somehow has a hell of a lot of random underpairs or 9x that are going to (1) 3bet BB vs EP, (2) call a largeish 4bet, (3) makes a delayed cbet on AAxx and (4) is going to call a bet on the river? We need an awful lot of low pairs to call to justify making the bet, to make up for all the Ax and better that she may have (not to mention any rare bluffs which fold us out as well)

Also from the description so far we don't have a terrible player. We've got someone who stacks off AQo preflop (loose and gambly and I'll advised but not the world's greatest OMFG WTF are you doing play) and who has 3bet with 99 which sounds perfectly reasonable. OK she makes a sizing error and probably isn't great but I think we are perhaps not giving her enough credit. Whatever size we bet it seems very very thin.

yeah i mean if you look at a sim the hand is likely going to be a check, but the idea is fish just gets here and similar spots with so much random depolarized stuff that isn't supposed to bet and air that you're putting a bet out to get them to do something stupid. there's a ton of nodes fish go down where your hands end up having like 90+% equity just because their ranges arent protected or constructed well and you're can take advantage of that. bb is probably not supposed to have any stabbing range here ott, but when they do and they x the river, theyre usually going to end up just being extremely weak / air heavy so you *can* bet small to take advantage of that either via them calling something they shouldn't or perhaps raising. i think its generally unlikely to see someone stab ax once ott for a small size and then x the river is the logic behind what i'm advocating and you have someone with bad / imprecise ranges who's already angry and potentially tilting and you give them the opportunity to make a mistake. you can definitely bet to induce in alot of spots.

i think its a large error to approach this hand the same way you would vs a reg / thinking player. in general you want to approach fish and regs differently, but here in particular i would be looking to give her an opportunity to spew (again, if there isn't a good chance of this happening i think preflop ends up being a mistake). am considering that b/c might have been better than bf even after betting 150 tbh, it only has to be a bluff 15% of the time to break even? its pretty much just a debate between this person will never ever raise the river as a bluff and this person will almost never get here with a better hand. if the assumption is people never raise the river as a bluff it's fairly difficult to persuade you otherwise, but it doesn't make much sense for her to x the river with an ace (if she leads turn), and then the xr size looks alot more like a5 / AA to me as opposed to something like AK. again with pot odds, you just don't need to spaz out much in general (if you have like 80+% equity otr, and she's not always xring the lower value region, how often does she need to randomly raise a bluff combo for you to win 15% of the time? something like sub-5%?). you can definitely get wrecked doing this, either by unpredictability, or people that do things depolarized, but even if you think this is the wrong place to apply this concept, it's a good opportunity to increase your winrate substantially vs fish in other parts of the game tree.

re not a terrible player, you have someone squeezing AQo and calling off vs utg which is probably a 30bb error lol

This makes sense. Your second post was helpful too, thanks. In the future I will think twice about 4betting in spots like this. I am realizing that I don't play 200bb deep against spewy fish all that often.

If villain check raises I would look for live reads. I would strongly consider calling a small raise because people do spaz vs small size and yes folding to continued aggression on turn and river.

I don't like the river bet, it's too thin after Villain led turn. It is usually a mistake to bet smaller than half pot in position on the river opening up the action and this is no expection. I think the fold is reasonable.

Our plan for this hand is really confusing. Why did we check flop? To pot control? Because we are worried of getting check raised? Yet we end up calling a bet on the turn that is bigger than what we would have bet on the flop and then we stick in even more money on the river allowing ourselves to be check raised. If you bet small on the flop you can check turn and maybe call river and the pot is considerably smaller. Or we can fold to a large check raise or possibly a smaller check raise with more barrels behind it. The way the hand was played, we invested more money than our hand was really worth on this board.

Ok thanks. That makes sense.

I agree with you that the river bet is too thin. To be honest, upon reflection I don't think I had a plan for this hand. I think I need to take my time on decisions in big pots more. I was reacting street by street. Flop? Uncomfortable spot, let's check back for pot control and to bluff catch. River? I have to go for max value against a tilted fish after she checks. Your comment about investing more money than my hand was worth rings true. I just watched an Uri Peleg video on YouTube about this concept that resonated with me.

I think there are a couple things that caused me to play this hand so badly. I'm mostly typing this out for my own benefit. 1) I am still new to $2/$5 (75 hours played, less than 10 hours with a 200bb stack since I'm effectively shot-taking). 2) I sometimes get unsettled after playing a big pot. I will often get up and take a quick break afterwards if there is a good opportunity to do so but there wasn't here. 3) I don't always have a clear/precise thought process in hands. I am working to clean this up and simplify things but often there are just too many thoughts going at once (what little I know about theory; potential exploits; gameflow factors; muddled noise) and this sometimes results in poor decision making in the spots that aren't automatic.

Uri Peleg is good I think that is probably where I first heard the idea about having a plan for your hand that allows you to put in the right amount of money for your hand.

Poker is a constant learning experience. I think it is good thst you are thinking about getting max value from a tilted fish. I just think that concept here was overridden by not wanting to invest more money than our hand wanted to and that we don't want to reopen the action on the river.

I think it helps to study 3bet and 4bet pots a lot off the table and think about what you are going to do when they pop up. Using a trainer like GTO Wizard's is helpful for that, but I am sure there are plenty of videos out there that go over a lot of the key concepts. I think playing online poker micro stakes (like 10NL yo 50NL) also helps so you can get in volume with 3bet and 4bet pots. 4bet pots especially are important to have a plan for because they happen so infrequently in live poker. They are also relatively simple to learn compared to single raised pots and 3bet pots because the SPR is so low, and ranges are pretty narrow.

That makes sense. Thanks for the advice! I will start drilling some re-raised pots on GTOw. I started playing microstakes prior to getting into live poker and I have gotten back into playing 50NL over the course of the last six months. That background is partly why I feel a lot more comfortable playing 100bb poker than 200bb, but I know that playing deep is an important part of achieving a higher winrate in live poker so I have been trying to challenge myself a bit more.

Wonder if she's tilted from the last hand. Doesn't seem all that passive now.

Pre seems fine. Might quibble over 4B size when she min-clicks you out of the BB, and go a tad larger. No idea what that min-click is supposed to do, other than maybe slow you down on the flop.

Think I mostly c-bet small on the flop. Maybe around $40, at most. I could see going smaller, but we're IP, she looks tilted, and I don't think she's folding or raising very often. I'd probably c-bet small, bet turn small, and then decide what to do on the river in-game, but most likely just going bet-bet-check.

Hard to give her KK or much Ax here, so I think we're good more often than not. Just seems like she'd 3B bigger with KK or big Ax, looking to get her money back from you. She might also size up on turn and barrel river, for the same reason.

As played on flop, turn seems like a standard call. Not sure about river. Hard to see what worse hands call. Maybe a stubborn TT/JJ? Does she fold KK if we bet now? Hard to say.

I dunno. I'm all for betting thin, but I think this is an okay spot to just check back.