High Rakes are Killing Limit Hold 'em

High Rakes are Killing Limit Hold 'em

A successful poker room is like a pyramid. That is, there are more small games than large games and the regular small stakes players tend to feed into the larger games.

However, in small limit hold 'em games, the rake is now so large, that it's very difficult to develop regular players. (Thus, you don't have the players to start games and keep games going.) This result can lead to an upside down pyramid which in turn leads to less games in the future. And the answer to this is to reduce the rake in the small limit hold 'em games.

(In the small no-limit games, even though the rake is also high, it's still not high enough that a core of regular players can't develop.)

Right now we can see this in The Bellagio Poker Room where I usually play (which in general is well run). There are almost always more $30-$60 games than $15-$30, and no games of smaller size.

For more discussion, see my Cardrooms book where I address what I think are appropriate rake sizes for small limit hold 'em games:

https://www.amazon.com/Cardrooms-Everyth...

All comments are welcome.

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09 March 2025 at 06:05 PM
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133 Replies

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by SLIM.SHADY k

You sound crazy! So a bus driver in 2000 making 40K -- should be making 80K in 2025? nonsense!

This comment was stupid the first time you posted it, and became stupider when you repeated yourself after several people explained that you have no idea what you're talking about.

In 2000, an MTA bus driver starting salary was $30K-$35K. Today, that starting salary is $56K. It has increased 86% in 25 years, almost doubling.


The problem isn't regs. It is fish. Used to be fish could play loose in limit holdem and sometimes win. Now they can maybe play 4/8 with old people or play 8/16, 10/20, 20/40 etc., which are much tougher than 20 years ago.


by SLIM.SHADY k

You sound crazy! So a bus driver in 2000 making 40K -- should be making 80K in 2025? nonsense!

Yes, someone working a job that generally made around 40k in 2000 would likely be making around 80k today, everything else being equal. But it is unlikely that a bus driver would have been making 40k in 2000. (I will say that overall inflation has been slightly less than 100% over the last 25 years, so the previous poster's estimate of an 86% increase might be more accurate.)

How old are you? Did you have a job in 2000? I feel like you don't have any grasp at all of what salaries looked like 25 years ago. When I got my first job out of college in 2001, I was making around 25k, and I had an Ivy league college education.


by SLIM.SHADY k
by NickMPK k

It does work like that in most of the exact sort of job you are mentioning. Typically public-sector employees get a cost of living increase of 2-3% per year, regardless of any additional increase for performance or promotion. If you get an extra 3% per year, you will more than double your salary in 25 years. And a bus driver who is making 40k per year today was indeed probably making around 20k in 2000.

You sound crazy! So a bus driver in 2000 making 40K -- should be making 80K in 2025? nonsen

Your favorite argument is the Appeal to Incredulity fallacy, ie it can’t be true if you don’t already believe it. Very close to the “argument from ignorance” fallacy as well.

We know that it takes close to $80K today in order to have the same purchasing power as $40k in 2000. So any jobs that paid $40k in 2000 likely pay $80k today, actually more given living standards increase over time. This is clearly demonstrated in US personal income statistics demonstrating how much unadjusted personal incomes have grown since 2000.


lol... if it gets to a point ako draws against 67s, take including, find a new game, because the rake has beaten limit holdem.


Idk all the hate for lhe. It a perfect game made for Live. IT a fast pace game +30 hands an hour which means tip are consistent. I am sure no dealers hate dealing lhe except maybe if the player pool are super ******* that don't tip. Everyone get to win at least sometime consistently which get dopamine released and create habit. It popular with the Asian women crowd who like to gamble and burn off time with their rich husband money. Comparing stud or draw game to lhe is sort of bad because of the rule and chop/slow play.

Fyi it the exact opposite of how I feel for online though where nl/plo are way better and I haven't touch lhe Live the last 3 years.


Mason coming in to explain why we should read his book in 3...2...
I feel every thread he starts is just a way to push his boring books.


To be fair, he does this to push his interesting books, too.


by puntmeister k

Mason coming in to explain why we should read his book in 3...2...
I feel every thread he starts is just a way to push his boring books.

Years ago, 1997 to be exact, I started this website, and we never charged anyone to read any of it or to participate here, and that includes you.

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