High Rakes are Killing Limit Hold 'em
A successful poker room is like a pyramid. That is, there are more small games than large games and the regular small st
You sound crazy! So a bus driver in 2000 making 40K -- should be making 80K in 2025? nonsense!
This comment was stupid the first time you posted it, and became stupider when you repeated yourself after several people explained that you have no idea what you're talking about.
In 2000, an MTA bus driver starting salary was $30K-$35K. Today, that starting salary is $56K. It has increased 86% in 25 years, almost doubling.
The problem isn't regs. It is fish. Used to be fish could play loose in limit holdem and sometimes win. Now they can maybe play 4/8 with old people or play 8/16, 10/20, 20/40 etc., which are much tougher than 20 years ago.
You sound crazy! So a bus driver in 2000 making 40K -- should be making 80K in 2025? nonsense!
Yes, someone working a job that generally made around 40k in 2000 would likely be making around 80k today, everything else being equal. But it is unlikely that a bus driver would have been making 40k in 2000. (I will say that overall inflation has been slightly less than 100% over the last 25 years, so the previous poster's estimate of an 86% increase might be more accurate.)
How old are you? Did you have a job in 2000? I feel like you don't have any grasp at all of what salaries looked like 25 years ago. When I got my first job out of college in 2001, I was making around 25k, and I had an Ivy league college education.
Your favorite argument is the Appeal to Incredulity fallacy, ie it can’t be true if you don’t already believe it. Very close to the “argument from ignorance” fallacy as well.
We know that it takes close to $80K today in order to have the same purchasing power as $40k in 2000. So any jobs that paid $40k in 2000 likely pay $80k today, actually more given living standards increase over time. This is clearly demonstrated in US personal income statistics demonstrating how much unadjusted personal incomes have grown since 2000.
lol... if it gets to a point ako draws against 67s, take including, find a new game, because the rake has beaten limit holdem.
Idk all the hate for lhe. It a perfect game made for Live. IT a fast pace game +30 hands an hour which means tip are consistent. I am sure no dealers hate dealing lhe except maybe if the player pool are super ******* that don't tip. Everyone get to win at least sometime consistently which get dopamine released and create habit. It popular with the Asian women crowd who like to gamble and burn off time with their rich husband money. Comparing stud or draw game to lhe is sort of bad because of the rule and chop/slow play.
Fyi it the exact opposite of how I feel for online though where nl/plo are way better and I haven't touch lhe Live the last 3 years.
Mason coming in to explain why we should read his book in 3...2...
I feel every thread he starts is just a way to push his boring books.
To be fair, he does this to push his interesting books, too.
Mason coming in to explain why we should read his book in 3...2...
I feel every thread he starts is just a way to push his boring books.
Years ago, 1997 to be exact, I started this website, and we never charged anyone to read any of it or to participate here, and that includes you.
".....allow cardrooms to maximize their business, and at the same time will be beneficial to the players."
I clicked on the link, the above is part of what's there. Corporate controlled casinos are not interested in doing anything "beneficial" to people who gamble in casinos.
A successful poker room is like a pyramid. That is, there are more small games than large games and the regular small stakes players tend to feed into the larger games.However, in small limit hold 'em games, the rake is now so large, that it's very difficult to develop regular players. (Thus, you don't have the players to start games and keep games going.) This result can lead
One thing Mason is absolutely right about is that the poker community as a whole massively discounts the values of pros and regs.
Of course everybody wants the richest and donkiest whale possible at their table, so say, we should cater to those people. The casinos think - that person is likely to dump a lot at baccarat.
Most importantly, people have the simplistic view that a winning pros is taking money out of the ecosystem and the whale is injecting it. And you can survive without a pro extracting money but cant survive without the whale injecting it.
There's some truth to it but it's much more nuanced than that. As Mason says, regs start the games way more and play way more.
A simple example is the Bay 101 thread I started about their prop player Muscle Mike boxing people out of what's supposed to be a public game. Two notable thing about that - first, they're paying props (or hosts, whatever) at all. And Im personally friends with people who have been props at Commerce and the Bike. Why in the world would casino ever pay a pro to play if there was no value on it?
Next - that Bay 101 game that I was told needed to get rid of the good players and only have the worst players, and Im and idiot for not understand it? Guess what - its dead. The host's whole job was to keep the game running and by boxing out players he killed the game and is back to his old job scrubbing the carpets since he was too bad at poker to play those stakes without the casino funding him.
It's repeated over and over again that GTO and tryhards will scare off the recs ,but think back to that big MoneyMaker boom everyone wishes to return to - it was far more tryhard than today! Everyone was wearing sunglasses and doing Tom Dwan staredowns. Did that scare off the recs? No, it appealed to the recs! Many of them were lookign for something competitive and strategic.
The thing written in this thread that I could not agree with more strongly is so many losing players are not just gamblers donating money but they're wannabe winners. So strategy and trying hrad doesnt alienate them, it appeals to them beacause even though they're losers they aspire to be winners. And if you make it so any path to trying to be a winner is discouraged, you actually alienate those fish, and ironically, in an attempt to appeal to fish you have less fish.
Of course its nuanced and neither whales, fish , nor pros are monoliths. Obviously fish and whales are critical and getting both pro and rec younger guys into the game should be a big priority of the community.
But both "poker games need pros who take money from the games to run" and "many fish will find serious, hardore strategy appealing and attempts to make the game more lighthearted will chase them away" are ideas that are counter-intuitive but often have a grain of truth.
One thing Mason is absolutely right about is that the poker community as a whole massively discounts the values of pros and regs.Of course everybody wants the richest and donkiest whale possible at their table, so say, we should cater to those people. The casinos think - that person is likely to dump a lot at baccarat. Most importantly, people have the simplistic view that a wi
A couple quick comments: Props and hosts have the effect of raising the rake for the other players. What happens is that the overall rake collected from the table can be reasonable, but the other players are often paying double or triple rake while the props essentially don't pay any rake since their prop salary usually covers their fees.
In the past, there have been times where poker rooms tried to hire weak players to be their props. This probably did help perpetuate the games provodong the player hired was truly a losing player. But since props are rarely used in Las Vegas, I don't know of any poker rooms that currently follow this practice.
One thing Mason is absolutely right about is that the poker community as a whole massively discounts the values of pros and regs.Of course everybody wants the richest and donkiest whale possible at their table, so say, we should cater to those people. The casinos think - that person is likely to dump a lot at baccarat. Most importantly, people have the simplistic view that a wi
IIRC you were trying to steal someone’s seat and were appropriately grabbed by the ear and pulled out of there
In jackpot rooms where most of the jackpot drop is paid out in high hands and similar, the smallest limit games are paying much less effective rake than the bigger games because they hit high hands so often. I've played a lot of PLO in places where my table was basically subsidizing a small limit O8 game, even though the rake and jackpot drop were nominally the same. By my calculations we were paying close to twice as much per hand as the little game, net of promotional payouts.
In Las Vegas the little LHE games still surviving run mostly at the Orleans and South Point, right? I'd guess they're being subsidized by the NLHE games on the jackpot drop at those venues. Seen in this light, it's not really surprising that these games can't get off the ground at a jackpot-free room like the Bellagio.
In jackpot rooms where most of the jackpot drop is paid out in high hands and similar, the smallest limit games are paying much less effective rake than the bigger games because they hit high hands so often. I've played a lot of PLO in places where my table was basically subsidizing a small limit O8 game, even though the rake and jackpot drop were nominally the same. By my calc
Was PLO eligible for the high hand bonus? If so, they should be hitting it a lot more than any hold-em game. If not, they shouldn’t be paying into the promotional drop.
I do think it’s true that small LHE games will hit high hands slightly more than NLHE games. But I don’t think the difference is significant enough to be concerned that one game is “subsidizing” the other. Though it’s also true that some LLHE seem to be primarily playing to hit the promotions, and if you kill the promotions, you might kill the game.
Can't say it is always true, but many rooms that offer high hand/jackpot promos in Omaha games have additional restrictions, such as you must flop the hand. Some rooms also separate promo money by game, again this varies by room. Last time I was at the orleans(several years ago) they had bad beats and what not separated by game type. So there is likely to be different effects of these promos based on qualifications of promos, game involved, potential ways funds are separated etc....
Was PLO eligible for the high hand bonus? If so, they should be hitting it a lot more than any hold-em game. If not, they shouldn’t be paying into the promotional drop.I do think it’s true that small LHE games will hit high hands slightly more than NLHE games. But I don’t think the difference is significant enough to be concerned that one game is “subsid
There were separate jackpot funds for Holdem and Omaha.
I think the difference in high hands hitting between limit and big bet games is more pronounced in Omaha, particularly when the qualifier is higher. Anyone would peel one card to try to hit a 2-out straight flush for $200 if facing an $8 bet, but you have to be very spewy to do so when facing a $500 bet. Whereas people seldom fold sets or combo draws before the river for any price in Holdem. Still, you have to get to the flop in the first place with your longshot jackpot-potential hands, and that's much cheaper to do in a limit game, the smaller the better.
There were separate jackpot funds for Holdem and Omaha. I think the difference in high hands hitting between limit and big bet games is more pronounced in Omaha, particularly when the qualifier is higher. Anyone would peel one card to try to hit a 2-out straight flush for $200 if facing an $8 bet, but you have to be very spewy to do so when facing a $500 bet. Whereas people sel
This would be true if they were both Omaha high only games. O8 complicates the issue quite a bit, as the game changes the desirable starting hands. In O8, people will be playing more hands with 2s and 3s, while PLO players will play more hands with 9s and Ts. This should lead to the PLO hands down down being higher in rank than the O8 hands, canceling out at least some of the difference you mention.
Mason, why not cap the rake at limit at 0 and call it no rake limit holdem hour, then when the bubble bursts rake fair amount??? We don't need 15/30 30/60 we need 1/2 2/4 5/10 and 25/50
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Oh yeh, good chef shortages. Rite.
Ah the 7-9 flopped 997 turn t fk hope the river is a 9, fkfk river 3.... Ok..... He has improved to fullest
In my opinion, the biggest problem is simply inflation
10 years ago you could win 300 in a night and buy 2x as many goods as you currently can
The cost of everything has gone up, paychecks have been stagnate in a lot of places, home ownership is now taking place later in life
In many cases, the operators hands are tied, they have overhead, and they also need to make a profit
For example, in my state of Washington (not a good poker location), we have the same 1/3 and 3/5 NL games as before, and bigger games rarely run/limited options, but prices of everything have gone up
It's simple mathematics, when money loses value of 50%, you need double the stakes or double the win rate to produce the same income
The solution is to open low cost competition. Dedicated card rooms in low cost areas, and bring online poker back to the masses. Both have massive problems, obviously
Further, there is a conflict of interest in regards to business owners and poker rooms. You think Trump wants to legalize online gambling and watch his patron count drop along with profits? No
Most casinos in Washington state have removed poker and replaced them with slot machines, they actively lobby(successfully) to harm poker because it reduces their profits
Legislation is slow to update poker laws as well. We have a betting cap in our state, and they haven't updated the laws to reflect inflation
In short, people in power are greedy and short sighted and I don't see that changing any time soon. They will continue to act in a manner that benefits them as any person in their shoes would
Didn’t read the whole thread. Obama 8 at lower limits seems more popular than
LHE. The Orleans spreads $8-16 regularly from what I see in Bravo. Sometimes $15-30 Omaha 8. Rarely do they get an $8-16 LHE game going. In fact I rarely see a $8-16 LHE game spread anywhere. South Point seems to spread $4-8 Omaha 8 on a regular basis now. Not sure how long that’s been going on. We’ll see if they start spreading $8-16 in the near future. IIRC other rooms have Omaha 8 at $4-8
Maybe Omaha 8 will feed higher limit games in the future.
Like I said you're proving my point. I agree with the bolded. And that's why there are barely any of these games left, not the rake. A bunch of old men passing time nitting it up in limit doesn't lead to much of a player pool.
The problem is you have a bunch of old guys playing low limit holdem who are passing away. Limit is an older persons game. No Limit is a younger game and it gets replenished at a fast rate. I don't know why there isn't more TV coverage of limit games. That might bring new people in. The game is fast and the pots are huge. I don't understand why it's not still popular. Low Limit is just a bunch of regs who are comfortable playing at the these limits. They are just hoping to hit a high hand or a jack pot.
