Beginner trying to learn 2-7 triple draw

I've only ever played no limit and plo, and I'm really bad at understanding new things quickly. So triple draw is confusing me quite a bit.

The first difference I'm noticing is preflop/predraw.

In No Limit the best hand preflop is AA. But once the flop comes it can quickly become the worst hand. Wih No Limitf I know someone has AA I can call with 76s and try to outflop them. However in triple draw if you know your opponent has 75432 in triple draw you have to fold because you never beat it.

But obviously you don't know what hands your opponent has. So I guess predraw you just play any 5 cards that can draw to the nuts. How do you quantify the difference in value of one card, two card and three card draws??

There is a book called Mastering Mixed Games. I didn't think it was all that good, but it will give you the basics. There is also a writer named Kevin Haney who has published many articles in CardPlayer magazine on all the mix games. Dig through his articles and find the ones on 2-7. I think the stuff he has written is all quite good. https://www.cardplayer.com/authors/447-kevin-haney

I think Dnegs did a strategy guide way back in Super System 2 about 2-7 Triple Draw Lowball that was pretty solid. Should give you a good foundational understanding of the game.

Since it's triple-draw you can definitely play a 237 draw since you're drawing so clean to the nuts.

A hand like 246 is rougher because there's a risk you draw a 3 or 5 and now you're potentially making a straight which is high.

Thanks for the responses. I'll check it out. Like I said. I'm bad at picking things up straight away so my early questions might sound a bit stupid.

Lets say someone opens, I call with 2-3-7-J-10and draw two. The opener has a 1 card draw. If I miss my draw getting K-Q. Do I just fold or keep drawing??

Picking up KQ sucks because you want to pickup low cards that pair you instead so it's harder for your opponent to be drawing very clean.

Do you have position on the opener?

Either way, you're still drawing clean to the nuts and don't have to worry about getting a straight (or a flush I assume since you didn't mention your 237 was the same suit)

You also need to take into account what you know about your opponent. Do they overvalue weak hands in triple draw? Do they bluff a lot?

With position I'm inclined to call and draw again

I am only folding here if the opener is a super nit who would not have bet unless he made an 8 low or better. Against most players, they are betting here whether they made their hand or not because they drew fewer cards. So you're getting 5:1 or better, and should call to draw again. If you fail to improve on the second draw, you would fold to another bet against almost all players. If instead you improve to a D1 (one card draw) or a pat hand, you would stay in for the final draw.

And what about my hand makes the 5:1 pot odds good??

I've only played no limit and plo before. I was thinking the mixed games where gonna be very maths based. But from what I'm seeing it's not. How do you decide when to chase your draw and when to fold? I understand that with poker a lot of it comes down to your opponent's hand. But I just mean a basic strategy of when to fold when to chase.

With the two card draws(7-3-2) and three card draws(2-4) where I need to catch up, should I just be thinking about my hands ability to turn into a strong D1 on the final draw? Rather than trying to think really mathematical.

Thanks for everyones replies I really appreciate it. It feels like a really interesting game.

There is an equity calculator called stud flop draw that can give you these answers.

It is much more math based than big bet games. For example, let's say you both draw 1 on the final draw. He bets, and you think he's bluffing. You made a 9 on that draw. You call. But even if you had zero read, you would still call here against an unknown player. So even though you had a read, you still make the "math" play. There are many times having a "good read" isn't enough to justify making the non-math play.

However, doing the math before the first draw isn't really a thing. We have all learned that you pretty much never fold 237 before the first draw. Nor any D2 to the nuts or better. We have also learned that voluntarily putting in chips to draw 3 or more is a mistake the large majority of the time. All of the correct basic strategy is based upon the math. It is just that the math is too complicated to do at the table. So instead you learn the basic strategy, and then use your reads to sometimes adjust that strategy.

Here's an example of that. The cutoff opens for a raise pre. You are on the button with 258QJ. If the cutoff is a super lag who opens way too wide, you 3-bet to isolate as you often have the best hand right now. If instead the cutoff is the tightest nit in the game, you just fold.

Am I not allowed to ask for advice on here??

I was not suggesting you not post; just helping you help yourself to learn about other spots. It’s a really useful tool for all the games and I encourage you to give it a try.

I've been watching some triple draw on youtube and the game plays very quick. Much faster than No Limit. So I was just assuming maths wasn't really neccessary. I've also been on google and seen a few articles. They all give the basic strategy. But never really mention the maths behind it.

With your making the 9 example. What's the math behind that call?? Here's my guess. If we are both D1 on the final draw it means we both don't have a 7 or 8. So once we get the 9 it's more likely our opponent got a k-q-j-10 because it's more cards than 7-8.

Would you ever call with the 2-5-8-Q-J? Or is triple draw 3bet or fold predraw.

Thanks for the tip. I checked it out and it's restricted access.

You call with the 9 because he might be bluffing, and at that point you are probably getting at least 5:1 on the call, and sometimes 10:1 or more. Most players overbluff when they catch a horrible card on the end, specifically when they pair their hand. If he had 2347 on the last draw, he will value bet any 5 or 6, and likely an 8 as well. He will often check 9-A and hope for the best. And many players will bluff when they pair a card. Not accounting for the cards in your hand, he will value bet 12 cards, and bluff with 12 cards. So your 9 will beat him half the time. Even if he only bluffs a GTO amount with top pair, that is 12 value cards to 3 bluff cards, or 4:1. And you are getting more than that from the pot. However, if he is a huge nit and never bluffs, then you can just always fold.

Doing the math during the hand isn't very necessary. But all of the proper basic strategy plays account for the math. Compare it to memorizing the proper basic strategy for blackjack. You are playing by the math, without having ever done the math. But, as in the bluff-catching call with a 9, it is useful if you do the math away from the table, so you understand why you are doing it. And can properly adjust for the players who bluff too much or too little.

So with 4:1 bluff/value ratio we need to win 20% to break even and the pot odds are at least 5:1 so the math says call.

Thanks for this. I'm gonna go re read the Kevin Haney and Negreanu, and hopefully it will now make a lot more sense.

"The Math" involves a few factors beyond just your cards. It includes your position, how many cards each player is drawing and even how many people are in the pot and to some degree how they play. In this regard, it is very different from Hold'em. If you are in middle position and it folds around to you with this hand, you might decide to raise to narrow the field. But if it goes bet, raise in front of you, you might only fold or call. Negreanu does an outstanding job of explaining this in his chapter in Super System 2. He goes on to explain when it is correct to stay pat with a 9 vs. drawing. Definitely worth a read. I plan on playing in one or two TOE events this summer and have been rereading his chapter.

Yeah I'm giving it a read now. I just wanted to hear how good players think about the game. Especially how to know when to chase the draws and when to fold them.

I've been reading the Kevin Haney card player articles on triple draw. I was reading his starting hands piece. He says to only open hands like 2-3,2-4,2-7 on the button.

Are these not ok hands to open anywhere? If we open and everyone folds we pick up the blinds. If we do get called or 3bet. We have a hand that can draw to the nuts.

Say we have 2-3. If we pick up a 4,5 or 7 on the first draw we now have a premium D2 hand with two draws to go.

No, they are not OK anywhere. You raise in early position, get called by somebody behind you who is D2, and now you are both behind and out of position. Position is more important in draw games than in flop games, by far. When it's the last draw and the first player is still drawing, now you can stand pat on hands like 9s, Ts, and Js. Even Qs or Ks if they are drawing 2 or more. But when you're first to act, you don't have that flexibility. That is why you only put chips in to draw 3 or more in very specific spots. If you always folded every hand that was D3 or more, you would only be wrong a tiny percentage of the time.

That makes a lot of sense. Out of position they will see what I'm drawing, so they can outplay me. I'm also not gonna have the same fold equity as NL Holdem. Which probably means I need to be tighter because I'm gonna need to make a hand.

This thread is kinda funny to me because basically every question can be answered by knowing the hot and cold equity, DumbosTrunk correctly posted the answer to how someone can learn the equities, and everyone else is just describing hand waving arguments for why the math is too hard when the answer to every single question is "well, what's your equity?". Would highly recommend you figure out how to take Dumbos advice and learn to use an equity tool.

The responses I've gotten have been a huge help to me. For what ever reason I'm not someone who picks things up naturally, so talking about the game really helps. I really don't get why some people want to stop any discussion from happening. How did people learn the game before an equty tool? I'm guessing through talking about the game.

How did you learn the game before equity tool or have you always had one?

Took me a while but I now get what Dumbostruck and DeathDonkey were saying. The answer to my question is simply working out the equity, and therefore use the equity calculator. I guess what I'm asking for is how good players would make these decisions without the equity calculator. Then once I understand that I can start using the equity calculator.

They study the spots using the equity calculator and then internalize how to act in those spots.