Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]
They do. This shows the desperation of the Palestinian people to be free from Hamas reign of terror on them. They are willing to risk torture and death to stand up to this fascist death cult.
And there have been a tremendous amount of beatings, torture and murder by Hamas of the Palestinian people. They even brag about it to demonstrate how much control they have.
Western liberal media and many govts just ignore it because they are all in on supporting Hamas, and there is no evil or depravity they wont ignore.
Depends.
There was a proposed evacuation to Egypt on the table that Egypt refused.
However, Egypt, the only country aside from Israel that has a border with Gaza, has rebuffed pressure to accept Palestinian refugees displaced by Israel.
Reports have indicated that Israeli officials have tried to lobby international support to compel Egypt to accept refugees from Gaza.
Egyptian President Abdel Fattah Al-Sisi, however, has been adamant in refusing to allow humanitarian corridors or the entry of large numbers of Palestinians into Sinai. He has called it a “red line” that, if crossed, would “liquidate the Palestinian cause”.
In recent days, the UN’s High Commissioner for Refugees, Filippo Grandi, has validated Egypt’s position. Grandi said displacing Gazans to Egypt would be “catastrophic” for both Egypt and the Palestinians, who, he indicated, would likely not be allowed to return.
Of course when Egypt seals its border with Palestine it is considered a heroic act of love for the Palestinian cause.
The truth is they treat Palestinian refugees like crap, charging high dollar amounts for relocation:
Before the war, it cost a few hundred dollars. Now it costs $5,000 per adult and $2,500 per child, according to Palestinians who have recently left Gaza.
"After we lost everything in Gaza, all our possessions, we have to collect the amount of money, which is a big sum, just to buy our lives," says Mazen, a mechanical engineer.
He was at the Rafah crossing recently with his family of four, waiting for his name to be called on a loudspeaker by a Palestinian border official. It cost them $20,000 to leave.
This is on top of the fact that once they arrive in egypt they have questionable
legal status and are often cut off from access to social services.
Fayoumi said he paid a total of $17,500 to get out of Gaza to the Egyptian company, Hala, which often had weeks-long waitlists and required a person in Gaza to pay the fees: $5,000 for each adult, and $2,500 per child. It was worth it, Fayoumi told The New Humanitarian: “Egypt was the only place we could escape to.”
He knew getting out of Gaza would be hard. He didn’t realise the hurdles would continue once he was on Egyptian soil.
“Our uncertain legal status makes it difficult to access basic services,” Fayoumi explained. “My children are eager to enrol in school, but paperwork stands in the way. We need official papers, and support to navigate these obstacles and ensure a better future for our children.”
Unclear status
Fayoumi can’t do many of those things, nor does he qualify for immediate aid from the UN because he, like most Palestinians from Gaza, only holds identification documents issued in Gaza. Many do not have passports.
These Palestinian documents mean evacuees can’t work in most jobs, enrol their children in schools, open business or bank accounts, travel, or get health insurance. They can access healthcare at private clinics, but the fees are often prohibitively expensive.
https://www.thenewhumanitarian.org/news-...
But we’re not supposed to talk about how Egypt and Jordan also don’t want an outpouring of Palestinians into their country, and the international community does everything in their power to ignore that fact. It’s just considered a given that innocent Palestinian women and children should be used as martyrs for the Palestinian cause.
Even the UN High Comissioner for Refugees wants to see dead Palestinian babies (victor’s words) if it means Israel loses international status. That’s why he backs up the idea of not evacuating Palestinians. Better dead in Palestine than alive in Egypt! Sounds like a really smart and rational position to have.
Egypt and Jordan are allies of Israel and the Western genociders. Nobody thinks they are friends to the Palestinians. They are comprador collaborationist regimes.
No. They couldn't. Because it would be destabilising and because it would be colluding in ethnic cleansing and letting Israel off the hook. So it would not be in those countries' interests or the interests of any European country. Nor is it those countries' responsibility. Israel is responsible for its own actions.I mean, why doesn't Israel announce that it's formally annexing
I’d rather be ethnically cleansed than forced to live in a warzone under an insane regime that views my death as a victory for Allah. As you can see from my sources above, many paid top dollar to be ethnically cleansed rather than stay in the warzone.
Also it’s sort of a weird result of humanitarian law that it’s actually illegal to remove people from warzones if the country is small and densely populated enough. I think it’s pretty stupid to adhere to the law here over what is the moral thing to do, which is obviously to remove civilians from a warzone.
Egypt and Jordan are allies of Israel and the Western genociders. Nobody thinks they are friends to the Palestinians. They are comprador collaborationist regimes.
And the UN High Commissioner for Refugees who is supporting Egypt’s position? Are they also a collaborator? What about all the Middle Eastern states allied with Hamas who also support this position? What about Hamas themselves who insist on people staying and dying over fleeing and surviving?
this is a weird sort of inversion of blame. the genocidal Israeli butchers are the reason for the mass murder. not Egypt, or Jordan, or Hamas. Israel should stop killing people for fun and profit but a leopard cant change its spots. the whole point of the Zionist project is to murder Arabs and steal land.
this is a weird sort of inversion of blame. the genocidal Israeli butchers are the reason for the mass murder. not Egypt, or Jordan, or Hamas. Israel should stop killing people for fun and profit but a leopard cant change its spots. the whole point of the Zionist project is to murder Arabs and steal land.
It’s not an inversion of blame. I’m trying to see things from your perspective and take things to their logical conclusion. If you have nazis as your next door neighbor and they offer to free some Jews to your custody, would you be morally justified in telling the Jews to stay and die because you fear giving them refugee status would cause them to lose their homeland?
It’s funny because for conscripting his citizens many leftists called Zelensky an authoritarian, but he allowed women and children to leave. Hamas and their allies want the women and children to stay to become martyrs, and you say they are right for that.
And all this is irrelevant to the issue of whether Israel actually is a genocidal monster, all it takes is for Egypt, Jordan, Hamas and their allies to see them as genocidal monsters. The empirics of it are wholly irrelevant to the discussion, as is who is to blame.
nobody is telling them they need to stay. they are saying that Israel should not be allowed to forcibly move millions of people. well probably less than millions (plural) at this point.
nobody is telling them they need to stay. they are saying that Israel should not be allowed to forcibly move millions of people. well probably less than millions (plural) at this point.
wrong. I already cited this. they are being told they need to stay, by Egypt and high level officials in the UN.
Egyptian President Abdel Fattah Al-Sisi, however, has been adamant in refusing to allow humanitarian corridors or the entry of large numbers of Palestinians into Sinai. He has called it a “red line” that, if crossed, would “liquidate the Palestinian cause”.
In recent days, the UN’s High Commissioner for Refugees, Filippo Grandi, has validated Egypt’s position. Grandi said displacing Gazans to Egypt would be “catastrophic” for both Egypt and the Palestinians, who, he indicated, would likely not be allowed to return.
And here is Hamas saying the same thing:
Oct 14 (Reuters) - The leader of Palestinian Islamist group Hamas said on Saturday Palestinians will not leave Gaza or the West Bank to migrate to Egypt, after calls from the Israeli army for more than a million of the enclave's residents to leave their homes and head south.
"Our decision is to remain in our land," Ismail Haniyeh added in a televised speech, while addressing Egypt in that part of his address.
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-eas...
Apart from these sources anyone paying attention knows this is absolutely part of the strategy and has been for the whole war.
First off, the Netanyahu administration seems to have calculated they can do without support from most of these democracies moving forward. Western Europe has chosen to demilitarize, so the only leverage they have is economic. But the new multipolar world is a big place and Netanyahu has calculated Israel can find plenty of trade partners with nations that dont care about 2 t
It's guaranteed not to happen on his watch, or probably even while he lives... I just wonder whether he has any concern for the long term. I also question what countries Israel can team up with that can mass produce explosives other than the US, and what Israel can offer in return other than surveillance tech. Basically everyone outside of the Western world views them as the bad guy, so I doubt the PR loss would be worth it for a country like China, even if the tech is better than what they already have.
Second, Netanyahu seems to be going for broke, and working towards a future where Israel doesn't need so much support, because no one is threatening and attacking them. The Sunni world seems ready to make their peace with Israel, so the last big domino that needs to fall is the IRGC and all their proxies. And the IRGC seems ready to collapse at any second; as the Iranian people themselves are sick of the corruption, incompetence and neglecting real domestic concerns to focus on funding and supporting Arab wars.
I doubt Iran is getting ready to fall. Usually when you unite people under an enemy, and that enemy proves itself to be in line with the propaganda, it's not a great situation to sow dissent. Iran has had a large % of dissenting citizens since '79. Is there anything specific that makes this moment any more precarious for them?
So IF the IRGC does indeed fall, the Sunni world makes its peace with Israel, and US continues to support Israel economically and militarily, all of which seem possible even in light of Israel's current actions; then even an Israeli state that is regarded as a pariah by Western Europe and Canada can be in a better spot geopolitically than they were 10/8/2023.
Israel is far bigger of a pariah in Sunni countries than Western ones, so I doubt #2 is going to happen. Overall, the strategy seems like a pretty low % gauntlet to run just to get to a slightly better position than on Oct 8.
One this is certain: the uprooting process is going to be brutal and devastating for PR. I just don't see how it's going to help achieve any of the three objectives listed above.
On a purely pragmatic level, why does Israel care if they're the bad guy? If a 2 state solution or full integration of all Palestinians into Israel were both DOA, some form of what is going on is the only viable "successful" path forward for Israel.
Because they would have run out of ammo long ago if fresh shipments weren't coming in from democratic countries. Granted, I question how democratic these countries are as much as the next guy, but if you look at the polls for how the different age groups view the conflict, they might be setting themselves up to lose that privilege. And without a vastly superior military with unlimited ammo, there's no way to win a multi-front war.
I’d rather be ethnically cleansed than forced to live in a warzone under an insane regime that views my death as a victory for Allah. As you can see from my sources above, many paid top dollar to be ethnically cleansed rather than stay in the warzone.
Not that many others can afford it. Egypt was only prepared to accept those small numbers of the better-off.
Hamas is now directly threatening Palestinians who accept aid outside their control.
And the western media and govts continue to be silent and indifferent. No depravity too large to ignore.
Obviously if the US and Israel could establish functional aid dispersal networks that bypass Hamas this would be a major blow to their power and control. Which explains why Hamas supporting states such as Canada, Britain and France are so insistent on blocking any such projects.
Not that many others can afford it. Egypt was only prepared to accept those small numbers of the better-off.
Like most of the dysfunctional Arab states, Egypt is tremendously corrupt.
Willingness of individual Egyptians with power to be bribed explains why wealthy Palestinians can buy their way out, and the vast majority cannot.
This also explains why there was so much smuggling into and out of Gaza.
Not that many others can afford it. Egypt was only prepared to accept those small numbers of the better-off.
That’s partially because (per my sources above) Egypt does not work with UNRWA, something that is supposed to be colossally genocidal according to Western leftists. I’m willing to bet that very few countries in MENA actually accept them in, as international law is not a big custom in these countries.
wrong. I already cited this. they are being told they need to stay, by Egypt and high level officials in the UN.And here is Hamas saying the same thing:https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-eas...Apart from these sources anyone paying attention knows this is absolutely part of the strategy and has been for the whole
Right, they aren't going to abet the criminal Israeli racial supremacist extremist monsters in crimes against humanity. But people are able to leave. Israel is who blocks them and often murders the convoys they give fake permission to. That's bc Israel exist to kill Palestinians. They live for it.
Right, they aren't going to abet the criminal Israeli racial supremacist extremist monsters in crimes against humanity. But people are able to leave. Israel is who blocks them and often murders the convoys they give fake permission to. That's bc Israel exist to kill Palestinians. They live for it.
You should have read the full article:
Egypt’s complicated relationship with Hamas
Egypt is its security. If Palestinians were resettled in Sinai, it could make the Egyptian territory a new base from which to launch resistance operations. This could drag Egypt into a military conflict with Israel.
In addition, Sisi has only just managed to clamp down on Islamist insurgents in North Sinai in recent years and is presumably concerned that an influx of refugees could be destabilising.
Finally, Sisi likely believes Hamas could mount opposition to his regime.
After overthrowing President Mohamed Morsi in a military coup in 2013, the Sisi regime cracked down on the Muslim Brotherhood and repressed all dissent. This extended to a demonisation of Hamas, which grew out of the Muslim Brotherhood’s Palestinian branch.
Between 2014 and 2016, the Egyptian military bombed and flooded tunnels linking Gaza with Egypt, at the same time as accusing Hamas of colluding with the Muslim Brotherhood against the state. It has also enforced Israel’s blockade of the Gaza Strip.
People don’t like genocidal revolutionary Islamists setting up shop in their borders, which is a big reason why countries don’t want to take in radicalized Palestinian refugees.
If that was true (which I don't believe) wouldn't it be best not to give them something to want to genocide you for, then, same as the US and 9/11 and the UK and 7/7?
If that was true (which I don't believe) wouldn't it be best not to give them something to want to genocide you for, then, same as the US and 9/11 and the UK and 7/7?
Sure, and if it’s true that Israel has been a genocidal regime predating Oct 7, then wouldn’t the same logic apply? Why is it always the Israelis that have to be committed to saintliness and no moral agency is ever expected of Hamas and IRGC?
Inversion of blame in this thread. Also lots of appeasement for genociders. You would make Chamberlain ashamed even.
Sure, and if it’s true that Israel has been a genocidal regime predating Oct 7, then wouldn’t the same logic apply? Why is it always the Israelis that have to be committed to saintliness and no moral agency is ever expected of Hamas and IRGC?
Look upthread. Israel has been pursuing the long game of eventual genocide since the 1940s.
This does not require us to agree on any of the empirics. It’s an internal critique. You’re holding Israel to a standard and saying, well this is what caused October 7th. Now I am just flipping that standard and saying, October 7th is what caused this by those lights.
There’s nothing there about us having to agree or not whether the actions up to October 7th constituted a genocide, all we have to do is see if you are consistent in your standard that you proffered.
Jordan has the largest number of registered Palestinian refugees, with over 2.39 million. Most have Jordanian citizenship, but some do not, and many live in or near the ten UNRWA-supported refugee camps. Palestinians make up a significant portion of Jordan's population, particularly in the northern regions
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This does not require us to agree on any of the empirics. It’s an internal critique. You’re holding Israel to a standard and saying, well this is what caused October 7th. Now I am just flipping that standard and saying, October 7th is what caused this by those lights.There’s nothing there about us having to agree or not whether the actions up to October 7th constituted a genoci
yes the standard of not burning thousands of babies alive and doing mass rape for fun. admittedly this is a crazy standard for a Westerner to understand when it comes to the treatment natives.
The UK must impose sanctions on the Israeli government and its ministers and also consider suspending it from the UN to meet its “fundamental international legal obligations”, more than 800 lawyers, academics and retired senior judges, including former supreme court justices, have said.
In a letter to the prime minister, they welcome Keir Starmer’s joint statement last week with the leaders of France and Canada warning that they were prepared to take “concrete actions” against Israel. But they urge him to act without delay as “urgent and decisive action is required to avert the destruction of the Palestinian people of Gaza”.
The signatories, including the former supreme court justices Lord Sumption and Lord Wilson, court of appeal judges and more than 70 KCs, say that war crimes, crimes against humanity and serious violations of international humanitarian law are being committed in Palestine.
Grauniad
