Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]
The work Candace Owens is doing is incredible. Great interview of the Jewish scholar Norman Finkelstein …And yeah, a small portion of left-wing supporters of Palestine are still running around calling her some kind of a racist. It’s absurd. Owens in this very interview above even sticks up for Jewish people and Israelis who are criticizing the Jewish supremacy in the IDF. But of course that is the left-wing/woke right sort of cancel culture
“your racist because I say so. Shut up you Nazi I don’t care what you have to say.”
Or how people wildly misinterpret some segment Owens did a year ago about whatever topic. It’s just laughable. No substance to no critical thinking. Candace Owens is playing one of the most important roles in bringing to light the most vile racism in the world occurring right now by far and wide, and that is against the people of Gaza…. and if people want to hate her, even those who claim to support Palestinians, let them say whatever they want. Owens is completely crushing it on YouTube, on X Way more people from the left , from the right from the Jewish background from the Atheist background from a Christian background are watching her compared to the pro IDF propaganda We constantly see on Fox News and CNN.
Finklestein reminds us of the Israeli operation to funnel huge amounts of money to influencers to basically get influencers to sell their soul to post criticism of Candace Owens, Tucker Carlson and or to praise the IDF.
You guys don’t realize how ridiculous you sound lol
it took me less than 2 seconds to learn what Bill meant by "Torah Jews". it must sound rediculous to you but then peekaboo probably blows your mind too.
And yeah, a small portion of left-wing supporters of Palestine are still running around calling her some kind of a racist.
The ADL has not always been a Zionist stooge. It's main focus was once domestic bigotry. After a 1915 lynching, it spoke up for Jewish victim Leo Frank. Owens wrote of the ADL: "They are sick, perverted defenders of pedophilia and murder. Every single person should study the Leo Frank case and ask yourself why the ADL has so much pull in our government."
Why is a lynching from 1915 part of a brief against the ADL today? She was asking us to associate pedophilia with Israeli influence today. That's blood libel.
She's not an ally the Palestinian solidarity movement needs.
She's not an ally the Palestinian solidarity movement needs.
shes not even pro-Palestinian. neither is Tucker. they both claim to be supporters of Israel.
that said, I dont look at her and Tucker as any worse allies than Bernie Sanders or Yuval Abraham or even lol Hasan Piker and the rest of the liberal Zionists. which is to say they are all trash.
Owens is batty, claiming that seminary student Joseph Stalin was Jewish. She said, “I found a friend who, who understands Georgian, and they were like, everybody knows that Stalin was Jewish, and I am like, Americans don’t know this.”
What's the point of making such a far stretch -- associating a blood thirsty dictator with Judaism -- if not to cast shade on Jews?
Reuters practices fact-based journalism. Here's their take:
Fact Check: No evidence Joseph Stalin wa...
I brought all this up before, but Knight refused to address it.
lol thats a wild conspiracy theory
The ADL has not always been a Zionist stooge. It's main focus was once domestic bigotry. After a 1915 lynching, it spoke up for Jewish victim Leo Frank. Owens wrote of the ADL: "They are sick, perverted defenders of pedophilia and murder. Every single person should study the Leo Frank case and ask yourself why the ADL has so much pull in our government."Why is a lynching from 1
No Bill, this is your own opinion on these situations. You’re holding someone’s feet to the fire for a situation that you are blowing way out of proportion. You’re on the outside looking in here. As Owens and Finkelstein are a big part of the pro Palestine movement …what are you gonna say now that Finkelstein is some kind of an anti-Palestinian because he had a discussion with Candace Owens? The ADL is an organization and today many of its contributors are totally influenced by cancer culture and wokeism. So it’s an organization that has a lot of problems today and it has straight away from what it used to be. And even if somebody criticizes the ADL of the past that is not the same thing as being against all Jews. There is no logic to what you’re saying. But that is a small part of the conversation and you’re blowing it way out of proportion. You have no proof whatsoever to accuse Owens of being against Jews she even has shown in the interview with Finkelstein and in plenty of other segments her respect for Jewish people and culture.
What you’re doing here is your nitpicking one off statements by Owens that by the way, I don’t agree with her direction on every single thing she says or does. So this is typical cancel culture what you’re doing here. That’s not gonna cut it Bill you need to look at the big picture. Owens is colleagues with, platforms and has openly expressed support for Jewish scholars and influencers. “Oh but blood libel” ughhh ..So look at the big picture stop the nitpicking stop taking people out of context.
Again keep saying whatever you want your Wrong on this one. I’m not going over this again too as we’ve had this discussion before and you hack out huge portions of my post that respond to the point you bring up. And you also don’t respond to other points I bring up like in the conversation we had previously. So surely if you are on the pro Palestine side which obviously you are, you can at least appreciate Owens for a lot of the work she has done.
Owens and for that matter people like Tucker Carlson, Glenn Greenwald, Dave Smith, the young Turks, Marjorie Green are bringing massive amounts of attention to the genocide in Gaza. There is a team work here between left-wingers and right wingers and that includes people who are socialists. You should respect this. I just don’t get your angle here. Oh well.
The work Candace Owens is doing is incredible. Great interview of the Jewish scholar Norman Finkelstein …And yeah, a small portion of left-wing supporters of Palestine are still running around calling her some kind of a racist. It’s absurd. Owens in this very interview above even sticks up for Jewish people and Israelis who are criticizing the Jewish supremacy in the IDF. But
Hi! Correct me if I’m wrong but couldn’t owens be racist and still accomplish all of the above?
Hi! Correct me if I’m wrong but couldn’t owens be racist and still accomplish all of the above?
Yes she can still be racist and cia plant or controlled opposition..
The better question is do you think people committing apartheid and ethnic cleansing and modern day colonialism is racist?
Owens is batty, claiming that seminary student Joseph Stalin was Jewish. She said, “I found a friend who, who understands Georgian, and they were like, everybody knows that Stalin was Jewish, and I am like, Americans don’t know this.”What's the point of making such a far stretch -- associating a blood thirsty dictator with Judaism -- if not to cast shade on Jews?Reuters practic
I wonder if she was conflating Stalin with the Bolsheviks..
She seems like some sort of controlled opposition. She could be meant to discredit the Palestinian cause.
The fact she was canceled actually works in her favor though.
The ADL has not always been a Zionist stooge. It's main focus was once domestic bigotry. After a 1915 lynching, it spoke up for Jewish victim Leo Frank. Owens wrote of the ADL: "They are sick, perverted defenders of pedophilia and murder. Every single person should study the Leo Frank case and ask yourself why the ADL has so much pull in our government."Why is a lynching from 1
Quoting someone from another forum..
“Imagine a guy so guilty that Jim Crow era Georgia believed the black guy over Frank”
No Bill, this is your own opinion on these situations. You’re holding someone’s feet to the fire for a situation that you are blowing way out of proportion. You’re on the outside looking in here. As Owens and Finkelstein are a big part of the pro Palestine movement …what are you gonna say now that Finkelstein is some kind of an anti-Palestinian because h
None of this addresses the key points I made. She's batty, impulsive, and sloppy for thinking Stalin was Jewish. She associated the ADL with pedophilia and that's a fact. Her character is part of the big picture.
A broken clock tells the correct time twice a day.
Quoting someone from another forum..
“Imagine a guy so guilty that Jim Crow era Georgia believed the black guy over Frank”
You don't have to take a position on Frank's guilt to say he shouldn't have been lynched, and that his religion was part of what made him a target.
Dredging up the Leo Frank case immediately ties someone to anti-semitism, see https://www.jstor.org/stable/2078796?seq...
You don't have to take a position on Frank's guilt to say he shouldn't have been lynched, and that his religion was part of what made him a target.
Dredging up the Leo Frank case immediately ties someone to anti-semitism, see https://www.jstor.org/stable/2078796?seq...
How do you differentiate antisemitism and antizionism?
I wonder if she was conflating Stalin with the Bolsheviks..
She seems like some sort of controlled opposition. She could be meant to discredit the Palestinian cause.
The fact she was canceled actually works in her favor though.
She has one of the most popular shows Youtube; so I dont know exactly what "canceled" means to you.
But yeah, she recycles pretty much every single Jewish conspiracy theory that has ever existed, and even makes up her own. And this is independent of anything going on in Israel/Gaza. She doesn't even talk about the Israel/Gaza war that much.
Her basic argument is that Ashkenazi Jews are actually a secret sect of devil worshippers from "Khazar." Who emigrated to Christian Europe to wage war against Christianity and destroy it. Including being pretty much all Communist leaders, or the puppet masters pulling their strings. And being either the perpetrators or behind the scenes puppet masters of Satanic devil worshipping pedophiles that control Western liberal elites.
As the Jews in Israel today are "Khazars" and not true Jews, this is how she justifies her intense negativity towards Jews and Israel to her Evangelical base.
Note: Candace reinvented herself as an antisemite a couple years ago when she left Daily Wire and was banished from TPUSA. So if you go back farther than this, there is plenty of material where she is supportive of Jews/Israel. But claiming this to show she is really a "Zionist" or "friend of Jews" is bad faith, as this current iteration of her is none of those things.
Instead if you wish to argue her complete 180 shows she is not really a genuine person, and will say anything for views (or just out of spite); that would be more fair.
at this point, in practice you cant.
article below.

Spoiler
US Congress has completed the conflation of anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism in House Resolution 894, passed 311-14 two months and tens of thousands of Palestinian deaths into the Gaza genocide on December 5, 2023. In it, the House “clearly and firmly states that anti-Zionism is anti-Semitism.”
House Resolution 894 should be taken as a signal that it is time for anti-racists to retire the phrase, anti-Semitism.
It was coined by Austrian orientalist and Zionist Moritz Steinschneider during the rise of biological race theory. The phrase was a critique of French biological racist philosopher Ernest Renan’s theories of Aryan superiority over Semitic races and first written in print in 1860. By 1879, German racist journalist Wilhelm Marr published a pamphlet arguing that the Jewish Spirit had triumphed over the German Spirit and Marr organized the Anti-Semitic League to combat the “Jewish Spirit” and expel Jews from Germany. The German Nazi leader Goebbels declared in 1938 after Kristallnacht that “the German people is anti-Semitic.” A few years later, Nazi Germany invaded the Soviet Union to enslave the Slavs, who they viewed as an inferior race, and to exterminate the Jews, who the Nazis believed were the real power behind the USSR: to the Nazis, the Soviet Union was ruled not by Bolshevism, but by “Judeo-Bolshevism”, as elaborated in, e.g., Paul Hanebrink’s 2018 book A Specter Haunting Europe: The Myth of Judeo-Bolshevism.
In the age of colonialism, anti-Semitism was based in biological racism at a time when its proponents like Marr and Goebbels and its opponents like Steinschneider and even Antenor Firmin accepted the division of humanity into races (a biologically indefensible position - Firmin accepted that there were races but argued that the races were equal, but biological science today is very clear that there is only a single human species and that race is a social, not a biological construct).
Open anti-Semitism of the Wilhelm Marr/Joseph Goebbels type was discredited with the general discrediting of race science (really pseudoscience) after the defeat of Nazi Germany. “Closet” anti-Semitism continues to exist and be adhered to by adherents of biological racism generally. Without laws supporting it, it remains covert and its overt manifestations are (correctly) punished according to the law.
After the creation of Israel, a new concept called the “new anti-Semitism” was declared. This “new anti-Semitism” always had a relationship to the criticism of Israel. The notion was that there was some line between the criticism of Israel and the new anti-Semitism, and that it was on critics of Israel to demonstrate that they hadn’t crossed that line and that they were not, in fact, new anti-Semites. Pamphlets about “Anti-Semitism on the Left”, “How to criticize Israel without being anti-Semitic”, etc., are propagated especially intensely during periods of Israeli atrocities and wars. This has culminated in the IHRA definition of anti-Semitism (criticized by, e.g., Independent Jewish Voices) and the aforementioned House Resolution 894.
The re-definition of the word “anti-Semitism” to mean “criticism of Israel” or of Zionism has been successful. It is not worth fighting over the word. If Zionists wish to take over the use of the word “anti-Semitism” so that it means “any critique of Israel” or “anti-Zionism”, let them have it.
It is a legacy of a time when the scientific establishment was so racist that it believed that there were different human races - that constant callback to scientific racism alone (implicit reference to “Semitic” race and implied reference to other “races” like Aryan, etc.) is enough for antiracists to phase it out. But another reason is that the terms of discussion have been so stacked that there is no way anti-Zionists can prove that they are not “anti-Semitic” by the Zionist definition of the word.
Anti-racists should abandon the word altogether.
We call it “anti-Jewish racism” because “Semitic” is an orientalist category invented by race scientists.
Antiracism necessarily implies being against anti-Jewish racism.
Antiracism, Zionism, and Anti-Zionism
Antiracist theory, adopted in universities and other institutions in North America as official policy, holds that people must not be discriminated against for, among other things, religion. Public events are often preceded by an anti-discrimination statement stating that “the organizers of this event stand against all forms of discrimination, whether by sex, gender, race, ethnicity, or religion, including antisemitism and Islamophobia.” A previous Anti-Empire Project pamphlet argued that these anti-discrimination statements need to be updated to include anti-Palestinian racism as a separate category of discrimination (For the most part, they have not been).
It follows from anti-discrimination principles that discrimination against Jewish people is unacceptable and sanctionable. Jewish people are minorities in the countries where they live: minority rights must be guaranteed in law and in practice, protected by the majorities. For the majority to respect minority rights is one of the foundations of antiracism.
Antiracism does not protect any political position, however. Zionism and anti-Zionism are nothing more than political positions - not protected identity categories.
Whatever their faith or cultural background, Zionists cannot appeal to anti-discrimination law or practice for protection of their ideology. The Zionist desire to erase symbols of Palestinian culture and nationalism from public space is itself anti-Palestinian racism and is not protected by antiracism.
Zionism is not a religion, not a race, and not an ethnicity.
Anti-Zionism is not discrimination by religion, race, or ethnicity.
Jewish is an identity, Zionism is a politics and ideology
The question of “who is Jewish” involves not only religion and culture, but also identification, being claimed by a community, history, languages such as Yiddish and Hebrew, racialization by European Nazis, the role of the state of Israel and Zionism, and other factors as well. It is a complex one and will be revisited again and again in this series.
What can be said is: however “Jewish” is defined, Zionism is anti-Jewish.
Zionism is a political ideology with roots in 16th-17th century English Protestant Christian religion that states that Palestine should be colonized by Jews.
In the 19th century, Zionism was further developed in Europe into an ideology that Palestine should be colonized by European Jews. The 19th century version absorbed other ideologies including European colonialism and the accompanying racialist concepts.
Yakov Rabkin, in the book What is Modern Israel? defines Zionism as an “ideology of protestant Christian origin that propounds the assembly of the Jews in Palestine.” We’ll have much more to say about the Christian, Protestant origins of Zionism later in this series.
Zionism is a political position, a colonial claim on Palestinian land, a political allegiance held by millions of people, a plurality of whom are Jewish but millions of whom are not.
If Zionism is the political position of support for the European colony in Palestine, the majority of Zionists are not Jewish.
A substantial number, though not the majority, of people opposing Zionism are of Jewish faith, Jewish culture, or have Jewish identity and communal roots. The number of Jews opposed to Zionism is probably in the millions.
It was stated above that antiracist theory is of no use protecting Zionists from anti-Zionists because these are political ideologies. It is useful, however, to investigate the political ideology of Zionism from an anti-racist perspective. Can the core tenet of Zionism, the prescription that European Jews should colonize Palestine, withstand antiracist scrutiny?
Political adjudication and Zionist safety
Zionist attacks on campus and other Palestine solidarity or pro-Palestine expression is framed in terms of “feelings of safety”, sometimes “feelings of Jewish safety”. A judge struck down a pro-Palestine resolution by a student union at McGill University in Montreal citing such concerns. Columbia University banned not only Students for Justice in Palestine, but also Jewish Voice for Peace, oblivious to the absurdity of banning a Jewish student group out of concern for Jewish safety.
On North American campuses, Zionist organizations doxx pro-Palestine students, often targeting Black students and other students of color in a display of racial bias, but also targeting Jewish students whose politics are deemed by them to be anti-Zionist.
Noah Zatz, law professor at UCLA, has argued that employers could legally require a political, Zionist loyalty oath to employers (as Germany will be requiring for immigrants), but in fact they have (so far) not:
“Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 (proscribing race, gender, national origin, and religious discrimination in employment) would raise no bar to the nation’s leading law firms simply demanding that their employees pledge adherence to a U.S. foreign policy of unconditional support for Israeli war efforts. But, unsurprisingly, the law firms are not taking that tack.”
Instead, they argue that expressions for Palestine make Jewish employees feel unsafe - an argument that conflates being Jewish with being Zionist. Zatz argues that the feeling of non-safety is legally insufficient:
“... employers cannot shield themselves from liability through such arguments. An employer’s obligation to prevent what’s known as “hostile work environment” harassment extends only to such environments that in fact are created on a discriminatory basis (here, antisemitically). Moreover, subjective experience, however genuine, is insufficient; liability attaches only when workers “objectively,” that is, “reasonably,” experience the environment as hostile or abusive.”
What is really occurring in these workplaces is not adjudication according to discrimination law or policy, but political adjudication based on Zionism, a political ideology. And if the topic is Palestine, those who feel unsafe by the topic are Zionists, not Jews.
As a matter of logic, Jewish people have a diversity of opinion and feeling about any flag and slogan, including the Palestinian one. There is no such diversity for Zionists, because Zionism has a specific position about expressions of Palestinian identity (succinctly expressed by Golda Meier: “There are no Palestinians. They don’t exist.”😉 .
“Jews feel unsafe when they see a Palestine flag” is false. What is true is that “Zionists [who may or may not be Jewish] do not want to see expressions of national identity from the Indigenous group they believe should be erased.”
Anti-Jewish racism is a European ideology of the 19th and 20th centuries, the most extreme form of which is Nazism. The anti-Jewish racist ideologies of Nazism and Fascism have been undergoing a resurgence in recent years: the entire Canadian parliament recently rose to give a standing ovation to Nazi Yaroslav Hunka. Notably, they did so in the presence of the Zionist president of Ukraine, Volydymyr Zelensky.
Palestine solidarity has nothing to do with it.
My guess is that by the Seventies or Eighties it's broad opposition to discrimination was eclipsed by the fixation on protecting Israel's reputation.
How do you differentiate antisemitism and antizionism?
Antisemitism seeks to smear all Jews. It is fixated on exposing the misdeeds of any Jew.
Antizionism makes clear that its objection is to the Israeli state and its supporters.
My guess is that by the Seventies or Eighties it's broad opposition to discrimination was eclipsed by the fixation on protecting Israel's reputation.
Antisemitism seeks to smear all Jews. It is fixated on exposing the misdeeds of any Jew.
Antizionism makes clear that its objection is to the Israeli state and its supporters.
But why if you criticize Israel is that called antisemitism itt and irl?
Also isn’t Israel any Jew so your definition or antisemitism is circular.
Antisemitism seeks to smear all Jews. It is fixated on exposing the misdeeds of any Jew.
What if I’m fixated on the misdeeds of any person and know that just bc someone of a race does something it doesn’t apply to all of that race?
Can I still fixate on misdeeds? Not bc it’s a race but bc it’s a misdeed that ought to be stopped?
Supporters of Israel have worked very hard to conflate antizionism with antisemitism.
Also isn’t Israel any Jew so your definition or antisemitism is circular.
Absolutely not. Millions of Jews are not Zionists, especially before WWII. Saying all Jews think the same is antisemitic, obviously.
What if I’m fixated on the misdeeds of any person and know that just bc someone of a race does something it doesn’t apply to all of that race?
Then be sure to say it upfront. For example, "I think careful review of the evidence indicates Leo Frank was guilty, but his extra-judicial lynching was an outpouring of antisemitism. The Frank case helped impel the creation of the Second Klan."