Israel/Palestine thread

Yes look the events of Oct 7 mean that Hamas don't get to be a thing no more. This has been known since about midday of 7 Oct 2023.

Yawn.

If you go back far enough no one is indigenous. Israeli Jews being born today are mostly 5th generation. Whether Zionism should have happened, it did happen. And the Palestinians running a generational guerrilla operation with no chance of success to undo historical events that happened before any of us were born is not productive for anyone, especially them.

The West really needs to stop funding this nonsense, so everyone can move on. It is one thing if the Palestinians were a proud, sufficient guerrilla group living in the hills. But they aren't. They are a beggar colony that refuse to join the productive world, and are sustained entirely on Western largesse and pity. It is a very sick society addicted to Western aid and pity, and this needs to end for everyone's health, especially the Palestinians.

Totally; I can't believe all those maniacs who thought the word ceasefire means that the fire would cease.

Well, the left's favorite Islamists, the Houthis, just destroyed a filled oil tanker twice as big as Exxon Valdez. So one can imagine the ecological destruction that will happen if/when the oil gets into the ocean.

And of course the response from the "left" will be a collective yawn. The progressive left, and their unholy alliance with political radical Islam, really is the biggest danger to the survival of the Earth that has been around in a long time.

One can only hope sane actors (even ones that are currently enemies) like US, Russia and China can realize the threat of Western progressivism and radical Islam and put a stop to actors like Iran and the Houthis and their western sycophants like SJP in their Jihad against the world and humanity itself.

Interestingly, Al Jazeera is slow rolling the news of this happening, which they rarely do when it comes to highlighting "successes" of Arab belligerence against the West. Even Al Jazeera realizes this is a major **** up and the radical Islamism they have been promoting has gotten out of control, and are trying to suppress the news of what happened.

Thank you. The indigenous debate is easily the worst one ever. Lets argue about who lived where 3000 years ago so we can solidify their claim to the land. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Indigenous debate matters somewhat to debunk claims though.

Palestine never existed as a self governing area at any time in history. A Jewish state objectively did.

It's either the past doesn't matter at all, or it it does it justifies Israel and not Palestinian claims

Not all pasts are equal. A Jewish history from 3000 years ago is not more important than Palestinian history from 100 years ago. It’s also not equal.

400k vs 15k

You tell me who lived there 100 years ago and you tell me who got displaced in the last 100 years

Use math to back up your argument

The "Palestinians" need to disband or rebrand. The reason no Arab countries will take them in is because they have caused problems everywhere they've gone. Kuwait kicked 300,000 out during the gulf war. Jordan and Lebanon have had major issues. Most people view them as terrorists even thought they aren't all terrorists. They have tried to bring their hatred to the US and now good patriots are fighting back. A non terrorist leader needs to step up for them.

Jews and Arabs lived together 100 years ago. The Arabs started to attack the Jews and the Jews fought back. The Arabs continued to attack so the Jews decided to kick them out. It makes sense to me. Most of the displaced Arabs left because they were told when the Jews were are dead they would be able to come back. Unfortunately for them they ****ed around and found out.

I blame the West. Western empathy in the 20th century has been a bigger disaster than Western imperialism in the 19th century IMO. The West artificially props up completely dysfunctional political regimes, and incentives horrible, antisocial, economically unproductive behavior.

The incentive structure needs to change. If Palestinians choose to be unproductive terrorists they should be completely cut off from aid. Then they will be forced to adapt and create more functional political/economic systems or leave.

It is actually crazy how conditioning aid to Israel is such a big talking point, when aid is like 1% of Israeli GDP, where we all just ignore the giant elephant in the room that something like 85% of Palestinian GDP is Western aid; so we have tremendous more leverage to fix things from this end if we had the political will.

Nobody is ignoring the big elephant in the room. There were talks about the Hamas leaders enriching themselves and living large in Qatar since what, 2014? Maybe earlier?

It's all 1 corrupt mess that everyone is responsible for.

where have I heard the bolded before? oh well, doesnt look like anything to me and comparisons dont exist.

Please cite. The history I have read says that pre IDF forces fought the British for control of Palestine which resulted in the nakba season 1

Let’s pretend what you’re saying is true; how many Palestinians attacked the preIDF forces? Who attacked first?

Why are 400k Palestinians being punished for the actions for a few?

if we did a broad DNA study of the Jews and Palestinians then I dont think the Supremacists would like the answer. pretty sure there were ****ing each other for centuries.

At some point we are discussing ancient history and not recent history. We have no way of even knowing how accurate our guesses at ancient history are. Even written records can be full of **** considering like 1% of population could read

Let’s focus on recent history, and let’s use numbers

If you did 100 years ago you would find a lot of common ancestors, if you do it today you find that for approx half Israeli jews, and not at all for the other half.

This is uncontroversial and scholars regularly talk about the different ethnicities of Israeli jews.

given the diaspora, jews can be very different ethnically from one another when reconciled in the same place after 2k years.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_eth...

What you had in mind when you wrote are Mizhrai jews, those whose ancestors lived in the muslim world, mainly in the middle east.

The other 2 big groups are Askhenazi and Sephardic jews, very different genetically from palestinians.

yes I know that. but its enough to destroy the who "indigenous" bullshit to shreds.

Which group of people were living in Palestine from 1800-1940 ? And what were the numbers?

5% jews in 1880, 25% in 1940. Rest arabs. Keep in mind this is the whole british mandate, so including Jordan.

There is already a 2 state solution in place for jews and arabs, and the arab state is called Jordan.

Palestinians as they call themselves today, residents in gaza and the WB, never existed as a distinct ethnic group. Palestinians as something distinct from jordans don't exist.

Jordan is the palestinian arab ethnostate.

We aren’t talking about ethnicities. We are talking about national or regional identities.

My numbers say 400k vs 25k

So why is it ok for the 25k to kick out the 400k and murder tons in the process? What could possibly make it ok?

maybe it was 400 vs 25 in 1880, certainly not later . It was already 700k vs 80k pre ww1. Then jews kept arriving, you know the "zionist" actual international movement?

And that was still under british rule.

When the british left it was free for all, arabs tried to kick the jews out and viceversa. Jews won even if outnumbered approx 3:1. Winning there completly justifies their subsequent claims, and every arab spared should be thankful of jews forever.

Arabs tried to kick the jews out even if they got the Jordan state remember, that was their place to stay in peace.

If you are a palestinian whose ancestors fled after losing a war in 1948 you are only alive because jews allowed your ancestors to live. Even after your ancestors tried to kill every single jew.

Your entire existence should be spent thanking jews for that mercy.

That is the claim.

The British didn’t just leave tho. They were forced out by the pre IDF

Why did all these European Jews feel like they had the moral right to take Palestinian land?

No, they just left, having announced the leaving date ten years in advance.

Different Jews, with a radically different religion (they don't practise Temple Judaism with a Levite priestly caste and animal sacrifice any more), and that was 2,000 years ago. You might as well reclaim the territory for the Roman Empire, which definitely, objectively ruled that area at one time.

Cite please