Is America becoming a tiered society

Wait in the USA you have to pay as a citizen not to go in the same line as non citizens?

No, you pay to go in a different line where you just scan your passport and they take a picture of your face. Takes like 5 seconds to get through instead of potentially forever.

Ok but we have different lines for citizens in the EU and we just enter showing ID , without paying anything. Immigration line is for non citizens (maybe non permanent residents as well, not sure)

There are different lines in the US also. The main lines your passport just gets looked at, but it is a line. Global Entry is basically just walking through.

Also, remember, you are not Italian, you are European. Travel from country to country is just like state to state, no?

Sure within Schengen (which doesn't encompass all the EU, UK was out and Ireland is still out), but i was thinking when coming back from the US or Brazil

I think we have to disaggregate two problems.

I think comparing local politics over housing to different “pay to play” tiers is a little misleading. The problem of housing is that people really do have self-interest in keeping their housing values high and making it so that their neighborhood are more detached from surrounding areas. That is, these individuals each have a reason for doing something that actually might collectively hurt society in the long run. Of course if I have a house I want to make the value go higher and higher, especially if I was sold the idea that houses are a good investment and putting 90% of my net worth into a house is a smart idea.

However attempt to “repair” this problem by using tactics such as rent control and section 8 have both led to their own problems and in some cases only contributed to the very same problem it’s trying to solve, namely lack of affordability. The reason is absent a reasonable supply of housing, there isn’t going to be a cessation in housing prices, and what is a reasonable supply is going to depend on how in demand a city is. It may be the case that NYC and LA could never build enough housing to bring the prices down, because if there was more housing more people would just want to move in. And any fall in housing prices is also problematic because it means you were a “sucker” for buying high and now have an asset that is worth less than what you paid for.

Things like TSA precheck or fastlanes on the other hand may just be an expedient way to solve the free rider problem. Infrastructure, whether security or otherwise, costs money. Furthermore while it feels bad to have different tiers, itÂ’s not really a problem. People complain that itÂ’s cheaper to buy games in certain parts of the world, but weÂ’re talking about a mutually beneficial solution. If IÂ’m looking at two different airlines, I might place importance on the cheaper one no matter what, so I choose Spirit or Southwest. Or maybe I want something very expensive so I pay for First Class on QATAR airlines or something. Maybe I just want midtier economy and will pay for something decent but not too expensive.

Taking away those choices so that people are all treated the same sounds fair in theory but it actually just makes everyone worse off. If you can tolerate the disadvantages of the cheaper option, or want the benefits of the more expensive option, IÂ’m not seeing why this is a bad thing.

The real problem in my view isnÂ’t different tiers of society, itÂ’s lack of clarity about what it is that our principles are, or the lack of intellectual honesty about what the outcomes of our desired system really is. ItÂ’s what leads the left to embrace defund the police and gender self-ID, or to claim that M4A would be cheaper than our current system without sacrificing quality. ItÂ’s what leads maga to think that they can advocate for large universal tariffs on every country, including allies, and that this wouldnÂ’t lead to significant losses to consumers and American business, or that our position on the world stage has been effing us over.

All IÂ’m saying here is that if there is a problem with fast-track, itÂ’s not going to be that it causes more traffic. ThereÂ’s already plenty of traffic without fast-track, and oftentimes they even serve as bus lanes so can make taking the bus even more beneficial. The problem is just going to be one of empirics, if fast-track benefits or hurts commuters and infrastructure on average.

And maybe another issue will be if enough people get unusually outraged it can lead to upheaval and an overturning of a policy whether it is good or bad policy, just like adoption of abstinence only education as a response to holistic sexed.

I will say that many people I understand don’t like “premium” versions because they think that the free or standard versions are somehow hurt by having the premium versions. Oftentimes it’s actually the opposite, where the premium versions are actually subsidizing the free or standard versions. Just look at youtube or spotify. The paid version makes the free version possible.

Anyway thatÂ’s my two cents on the matter, I do think itÂ’s an interesting question and one where empirical data can help clarify whether there really is an underclass being created or itÂ’s just different people with different means valuing different things. Or perhaps in the housing example just self-interested agents doing what is to be expected of self-interested agents (sometimes they get it wrong in the aggregate).

interesting and very cogentviewpoints

dare i say i am at least convinced enough to revisit my position

but i will eat popsicle in hell before i will ever agree that a 1 toll lane 2 free lane highway is an improvement over a 3 way highway, toll or otherwise

Within the Schengen Agreement you can travel freely from country to country most of the time, and the agreement is also EU law. However, you have two EU opt-outs (Cyprus and Ireland) and several European non-EU countries that are not member of the agreement (Albania, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Belarus, Bosnia & Hercegovina, Macedonia, Moldova, Montenegro, Russia, Serbia, Turkey, Ukraine, United Kingdom). There are VISA exceptions for tourism in some of these.

Then you have some micro-states that do not have their own border control(San Marino, Monaco, Vatican), and one that does (Andorra).

Not all territory of Schengen countries are necessarily included in the agreement, these are typically island territory / overseas territory. Examples include Greenland, Svalbard, French Guiana etc), but some such areas are included.

It sounds more complicated than it is, and is certainly nothing compared to the old nightmare of 20-40+ (number of countries in Europe varies a lot historically) European countries with individual bureaucracies and border laws. You could even find internal border controls due to conflicts or political systems. In West Germany, which was a federation, the state of Bavaria had its own rather strict border control, for example.

Some nationalist dingbats wants the Schengen agreement disbanded, presumably because they never saw or have forgotten Europe without it. If they lifted their heads out of the Russian propaganda trough, they could also learn that member countries (and their border zones, if the have any) are in fact free to reinstate border controls if they need to, which has happened in the past (even Bavaria's!).

Whew... Top tier.

Interesting take. I do think there seems to be some peculiarity of human psychology where the competitive impulse can override even rational self interest.

Like in your freeway toll lane example, I suspect that people might feel more emotionally satisfied with getting to their destination a little slower so long as they're getting to their destination faster than everyone else (in the non toll lanes).

Or another less serious example I once heard was, "How much money do you need to make to feel satisfied?"

With the answer universally being:

In my view that primitive competitive drive for humans to want to place themselves above other humans is about competition for mates. To an extent we all play the game if we want to get laid.

Still I think it's good for people to examine their subconscious motives to become more self-aware and ideally we can evolve beyond the rat race keeping up with the Jonses mentality.

100%

you can also walk through the metal detector instead of having to stand in the body scanner with your hands above your head.