LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)
Very impressed with the minute sequence where LeBron clearly lost the ball headed to the rim, heat got the ball anyway and scored, then he elbows his defender in the chin, drawing a defensive foul and stern talking to from the official and hitting a 3.
It's these ref assisted 5 point swings in close games that truly bring out the best in great players.
Link to post of why Elon Musk is the true GOAT: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showp...
The thread that will go on for years..........
vs.
Miller actually lost to the better jumpshooters in question - MJ and Kobe in 98' and 00' - otherwise Miller would have 2 chips.. But again, it isn't a viable counter in the first place to say "I found a jumpshooter that didn't win!!!"
Fallguy,
When you say off ball jump shooters have a superior track record of building winning, unbeatable teams with INFINITE SAMPLE SIZE (your words), it completely refutes your argument when there are multiple counter examples where the complete opposite happened. Lying about LeBron’s championship rate, Reggie Miller’s all-star teammates, or claiming Shaq was bad, does not change that.
Between 10-16 feet for career: Kobe 43%
Between 10-16 feet for career: Melo 41%
Then from 16-3point range Melo is better, and from 3 point range Melo is better.
The "jump shooting" efficiency difference between Melo and Kobe are really not that much.
Carmelo points were more "assisted" than Kobe's were from a jump shooting perspective. So Carmelo was kinda more "off ball" than Kobe was even though both players were very ball dominant.
So Fallguy's entire narrative about "expert jump shooting", "off ball jumpshooting" just falls into the trash can.
Slow pony...
Michael Jordan's shooting stats from 96-97 (they don't have shooting stats from ranges before that year) were Godly. Then he falls off in 1998 as he got older.
DURANTULA is just a God of shooting from every range.
Looks like Carmelo is a better shooter than Kobe, and more of his field goals are assisted indicating he's a better off the ball player.
Might have to re-assess...
This is what is so stupid about fallguy's "analysis" and heavy emphasis on "expert jump shooting".
Kobe and Carmelo were predominantly jump shooters with similar jump shooting efficiencies, but there is a reason one is in the top 10 all time, and the other is probably top 40 all time.
To break things down into jump shooting ignores so many other facets of basketball. Fallguy's brain is truly broken.
There actually aren't many high volume jumpshooters that have good efficiency - Curry, MJ, Kobe, and Dirk are among the only ones.
Iverson, Trae and Melo's efficiency isn't good and doesn't compare to Kobe, MJ and Curry...
It's important to understand that it's a thin line - jumpshooting allows great ball movement and it's goat when it's done with good efficiency and assisted by teammates, but it becomes cancerous below a certain efficiency level and when it's extended 1-on-1 forays that we see f
The numbers show Kobe and Carmelo efficiencies are similar for jump shooting.
That means Kobe was just as cancerous as Carmelo and a perennial loser if not bailed out by peak Shaq and Gasol?
Explain.
There actually aren't many high volume jumpshooters that have good efficiency - Curry, MJ, Kobe, and Dirk are among the only ones.
Iverson, Trae and Melo's efficiency isn't good and doesn't compare to Kobe, MJ and Curry...
It's important to understand that it's a thin line - jumpshooting allows great ball movement and it's goat when it's done with good efficiency and assisted by teammates, but it becomes cancerous below a certain efficiency level and when it's extended 1-on-1 forays that we see f
The fact that Melo has basically the same jump shooting efficiency (better if you value the efficiency of 3p attempts over long 2s) while being assisted on a significantly higher proportion of his baskets than Kobe makes this post *chef's kiss*
Fallguy battle autism engaged. Can’t wait to see where he goes next.
Miller won more with less than 2004 - 2010 Lebron.
That's a pretty good support for my point that jumpshooters generally win more with less - there's plenty of exceptions, but there's an obvious correlation between being a jumpshooter and winning more than ball-dominators.
History shows that the only great teams/dynasties in history were by bigs or jumpshooters
Never ball-dominators (high-scoring PG's).
For this reason, the best bigs and jumpshooters > the best ball-dominators
This puts Lebron below Kobe and outside the top 10
The fact that Melo has basically the same jump shooting efficiency (better if you value the efficiency of 3p attempts over long 2s) while being assisted on a significantly higher proportion of his baskets than Kobe makes this post *chef's kiss*
Carmelo's efficiency and volume on jumpers is far below Kobe's
I posted the links earlier - it's not even close - Carmelo rarely broke 40% EFG or 1000 attempts, while Kobe was routinely at 43-47% on 1300-1700 attempts
So it's not even close - Kobe took twice as many jumpers in some years on far better efficiency.
So I don't know what numbers you guys are looking at but they're wrong. I'll post the full jumpshooting stats for Kobe and Melo later - Kobe's jumpshooting volume and efficiency destroys Melo
Fallguy,
When you say off ball jump shooters have a superior track record of building winning, unbeatable teams with INFINITE SAMPLE SIZE (your words), it completely refutes your argument when there are multiple counter examples where the complete opposite happened. Lying about LeBron’s championship rate, Reggie Miller’s all-star teammates, or claiming Shaq was bad, does not change that.
The only great teams/dynasties in history are by bigs or jumpshooters
Never ball-dominators (high-scoring PG's)
And it's over the infinite sample size that is the entirety of NBA history
And when did I lie about Lebron's horrific winning frequency??? 4 chips in 21 years is horrible and the worst winning frequency of any top 10 candidate.. Wilt is the only guy whose futility compares... Lebron went 1 for 5 with AD, which isn't even top 100 caliber, let alone goat... Ditto his pathetic, underachieving tenures with Miami and Cleveland.. 1 for 4 with Love isn't top 100 caliber... 2 for 4 with Wade isn't top 100 caliber - 100 guys would've done better
The only great teams/dynasties in history are by bigs or jumpshooters
Never ball-dominators (high-scoring PG's
ITT we learn that Steph Curry is not a high scoring point guard.
You know, I’m starting to think this whole “you’ve never touched a spherical object before and don’t know ball” thing you’ve got going may be a sham.
ITT we learn that Steph Curry is not a high scoring point guard.
You know, I’m starting to think this whole “you’ve never touched a spherical object before and don’t know ball” thing you’ve got going may be a sham.
You're playing dumb on nomenclature, when it's been the crux of the argument all along, smh.
Lebron starts at forward, yet I've been calling him a "point guard" this entire time based on his playing style/wheelhouse/skillset, which is based on the obvious eye test and backed up by stats - Lebron's low assisted rate, high hold-time, and reduction of teammate assists (imposition of spot-up roles) show that Lebron is a point guard.. Meanwhile, Curry is a polar opposite in all these stats, which shows that he's a jumpshooter that simply starts at point guard (just like Lebron is a point guard that starts at forward).
Again, the best jumpshooters in history produced dynasties, whether it's the best 3-point jumpshooter (Curry), or 2-point jumpshooter (MJ), or jumpshooting diversity (Kobe) - they all produced dynasties... Similarly, the best bigs produced dynasties like Russell, Kareem and Duncan.. These dynasties by jumpshooters and bigs are the only dynasties in history.. Some might consider Bird's Celtics to be a dynasty, which is fine and that would add another jumpshooter.. Bird's only losses in the Finals were to Magic and both times were ultra-competitive, which contrasts with Lebron's goat choke and record loss to a 1-star team and fossil team, respectively.
Btw, Lebron's assisted rate has only increased as an old man, and his horrible off-ball play is actually the main reason why the Lakers have been so bad despite yearly roster overhauls each year.
LeBron James career % of 2 point FG assisted = 35.4%
Steph Curry career % of 2 point FG assisted = 34.3%
Looks like you’re the one playing dumb on nomenclature. Or just outright lying. Undecided which one.
Let me guess: LeBron’s seasons with a high % of assisted 2P FG’s don’t count, and if you cut them out then his % is low. Much like his rings in 2012, 2013, and/or 2016 don’t count so he has never won 3 rings in 5 years like Tim Duncan.
LeBron James career % of 2 point FG assisted = 35.4%
Steph Curry career % of 2 point FG assisted = 34.3%
Looks like you’re the one playing dumb on nomenclature. Or just outright lying. Undecided which one.
Let me guess: LeBron’s seasons with a high % of assisted 2P FG’s don’t count, and if you cut them out then his % is low. Much like his rings in 2012, 2013, and/or 2016 don’t count so he has never won 3 rings in 5 years like Tim Duncan.
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The only source for overall assisted rates is NBA.com, and you can only get 1 year at a time:
Overall assisted rate on all FG's
2016 Curry'............. 46.6%
2009 Lebron........... 33.6%
So a position like forward that normally has a 50-70% assisted rate gets lowered to 34%, which lowers the assist capacity of the team.
It's math - Lebron turns a highly-assisted position into a lowly-assisted one, thereby lowering the assist capacity of the team.. His assisted rates are 20-35%, which is point guard level, while forwards are 50-70% and off-guards like Curry's are 45-55%.
Lebron's presence is a 2nd point guard on the floor along with D-Lo, Kyrie, Chalmers, Mo, Rondo, or Westbrook, and these 2-point guard lineups result in an abnormally ball-dominant team.
LeBron James career % of 2 point FG assisted = 35.4%
Steph Curry career % of 2 point FG assisted = 34.3%
Looks like you’re the one playing dumb on nomenclature. Or just outright lying. Undecided which one.
Let me guess: LeBron’s seasons with a high % of assisted 2P FG’s don’t count, and if you cut them out then his % is low. Much like his rings in 2012, 2013, and/or 2016 don’t count so he has never won 3 rings in 5 years like Tim Duncan.
Your numbers aren't the right numbers because NBA.com is the only place to get overall assisted numbers and you can only do it 1 year at a time (see links above).
Accordingly, Curry's assisted rate is much higher than Lebron's, while he doesn't impose spot-up roles upon teammates either (lower their assists) - Draymond would be another bust as 3rd-best player and a spot-up shooter alongside Lebron.. Otoh, he's a facilitator alongside an assist target and high-assisted player like Curry (expert jumpshooter)..
Curry has an even split between finding teammates as a ball-handler and then bailing out teammates as an off-ball assassin/expert jumpshooter - he ultimately creates more assists than Lebron by finding teammates AND being an assist target himself - this produces higher assist teams and promotes superior, 5-man basketball.
.
Kobe Bryant
2012-13 FGM % assisted = 33.2%
LeBron James
2004-05 FGM % assisted = 45.3%
yOu caN ONlY lOoK aT OnE SeaSON aT a TimE oN Nba.cOM
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The only source for overall assisted rates is NBA.com, and you can only get 1 year at a time:
Overall assisted rate on all FG's
2016 Curry'............. 46.6%
2009 Lebron........... 33.6%
So a position like forward that normally has a 50-70% assisted rate gets lowered to 34%, which lowers the assist capacity of the team.
It's math - Lebron turns a highly-assisted position into a lowly-assisted one, thereby lowering the assist capacity of the team.. His assisted rates are 20-35%, which is point guard level, while forward
Stop lying, aggregated stats are here in bbref. In the shooting section.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/pla...
https://www.basketball-reference.com/pla...
https://www.basketball-reference.com/pla...
Bron's entire career assisted rate is 35.4%
Curry entire career assisted rate is 34.3%
Kobe's entire career assisted rate is 35.6%
Bron was just as much offball throughout his entire career as Curry and Kobe. Your entire offball / expert jump shooting argument is being flushed down the toilet.
New paragraphs are needed ASAP in order to continue arguing here.
Now let's go to NBA.com that has more accurate stats and compare LeBron to Kobe assist %.
And lo and behold, LeBron's LOWEST assisted % of FGM year was 2020, the year he won 1st team all-nba, 2nd in MVP voting, won a championship and FMVP to boot.
Entire fallguy narrative destroyed.
LeBron:
https://www.nba.com/stats/player/2544?Se...
Kobe:
https://www.nba.com/stats/player/977?Sea...
Miller won more with less than 2004 - 2010 Lebron.
That's a pretty good support for my point that jumpshooters generally win more with less - there's plenty of exceptions, but there's an obvious correlation between being a jumpshooter and winning more than ball-dominators.
History shows that the only great teams/dynasties in history were by bigs or jumpshooters
Never ball-dominators (high-scoring PG's).
For this reason, the best bigs and jumpshooters > the best ball-dominators
This puts Lebron belo
This has nothing to do with my post.
You said that Miller lost in 2000 because Kobe was a better jump shooter. Which is just wrong. 41%! Miller was above 50% btw.
I just want to hear you say you were wrong.
Stop lying, aggregated stats are here in bbref. In the shooting section.
Bron's entire career assisted rate is 35.4%
Curry entire career assisted rate is 34.3%
Kobe's entire career assisted rate is 35.6%
Bron was just as much offball throughout his entire career as Curry and Kobe. Your entire offball / expert jump sho
Your numbers are wrong - NBA com is required to get the assisted numbers, as shown earlier...
And when we look at the real numbers, we see that Lebron is just a dumb ball-dominator with an assisted rate that averaged around 30-35% compared to 45-50% for Curry, Kobe and MJ ....
The worst part is that Lebron is a forward and should have a 60-70% assisted rate, which makes Lebron's ball-dominance the most ABNORMAL.. So Lebron has the most ball-dominant teams, which creates the worst chemistry and underachieving teams ever - this is historical fact because Lebron has the most losses with favored rosters, such as 7 losses with the preseason favorite or homecourt - so he lost with favored rosters almost twice as much as he won... lololol... That's what abnormal ball-dominance does - it's a weak brand of ball that underachieves favored rosters.
