GOAT NBA Discussion: Biggest fraud poster: fallguy. Super AIDS Containment thread

So, what am I wrong about?

It's a simple question. Answer should be a maximum of 2 sentences. Or better yet, find the quote I was wrong about.

Stop posting the exact same thing over and over again (I know that's your thing). Please don't reply to this post by saying the exact same thing.

Fwiw I mean FTattempt.
And u take 1 series where it’s close to true while you discard all the other where it isn’t true ….

There's a lot of arguments in this thread, but I think we can all agree that SGA is currently having a better regular season than Kobe ever had.

At least we aren't going to argue about that.

Jordan averaged 45 in the 1992 2nd Round, so he averaged the most in the triangle.

He also averaged 41 on the championship level in the 93' Finals.

Again, Phil inherited an impending champion that nearly beat the Pistons already and was the 2nd-best team with steepest trajectory.. We know that Phil didn't know what he was doing and just got lucky because he thought the triangle would shift the load to others and Jordan wouldn't be scoring champ anymore, but Jordan's shot attempts, scoring rate, RPG and APG increased, so the carry-jobs CONTINUED in the triangle... 7 of Jordan's top 10 scoring series were in the triangle and 3 of the top 5.

A player cannot be good off-ball with a low assisted rate... Anyone that produced assisted rates below 40% most years (and therefore has a career assisted rate below 40%) is a primary ball-handler, and therefore didn't play off-ball.

However, my recent posts didn't bring up assisted rate - I just showed that Jordan played off-ball so much that his first NBA coach didn't think he had a handle or was a ballhandler at all... Then I showed that Doug Collins played Jordan off-ball so much that it was considered a sea change and big media story when he briefly switched to PG for 25 games in 1989.

A scout can tell if Shaq dunks a lot after 90 seconds, or a short period of time... It wouldn't take long for a scout to know that Shaq dunks a lot in every offense.

Similarly, any scout can tell if someone plays off-ball versus being a primary ballhandler or ball-dominator.... This is easily seen after a short period of time as well.. It wouldn't take long to see that Lebron, Luka or Harden are massive ball-dominators, or that MJ or Curry play amazingly off-ball.

Shaq dunks a lot in every offense, and this should be common knowledge... Accordingly, if you ask me to prove it, that would be dumb and ignorant on your part for not knowing that a primary source of points for Shaq is dunks, regardless of scheme - dunks are simply a primary aspect of Shaq's skillset, just like drives are for Lebron... Similarly, a primary skill and source for MJ is assisted buckets (off-ball), since he's the goat off-guard... He's also the goat "shooting" guard, hence the goat 2-point jumpshooting.

First of all, I've proven that Jordan played off-ball so much at North Carolina that he was viewed as having no handle and not a ball-handler when he first entered the NBA - this alone proves that he was an off-ball player with a high assisted rate, since players with no handle play off-ball, and therefore have high assisted rates.

This is bball 101.. The only reason that I have to explain the basics is because of your denial - you know that if the evidence stands, then Lebron is overrated and you fell for a fraud.. At this point, it's clear that Lebron has a ball-dominant or "downhill" skillset , which isn't 5-man basketball, so he produces woat chemistry and the lowest team ceilings/Finals records ever.

Otoh, Jordan played off-ball so much that he wasn't viewed as having a handle when he entered the league, while a cursory eye test shows that he was the goat off-ball player by 1987, just like a short eye test would show that Shaq is the goat dunking big man of the modern era... Accordingly, if you refuse to look at the obvious footage and instead claim something that is equivalent to saying Shaq didn't dunk a lot, then that's on you.. You'll continue to be wrong each time more evidence is uncovered..

How do you think Jordan won basically right away in the triangle and was so undefeatable, while proving Phil wrong with scoring titles in 7 of 7 seasons in the triangle?.. It's because his game was already conducive for it - he already had the goat turnaround, pull-up jumper, and catch-and-go moves - a cursory eye test shows this.. I'll start posting gifs of goat assisted buckets that only MJ could score, smh (above)... Btw, MJ spawned millions of copy-cats, and one of them copied the style sufficiently to win 5 more in the triangle (Kobe).. The triangle requires a goat closer of possessions, so Kobe set the record for clutch-time PPG in the 00' Playoffs and led the Lakers in scoring for the 01' and 02' Western Playoffs - he carried the Lakers over the Spurs both years).
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You said Jordan's burden was less in the triangle but it was obviously much more, based on scoring, shot attempts, RPG, APG

Curry, Dirk, MJ, Bird - tons of guys had better regular seasons than Lebron ever had.

But we know that SGA won't win a title this year because high-scoring primary ballhandlers (ball-dominators) cannot win with "normal" rosters of 1 franchise player and need "super-teams" of multiple franchise players, yet they still rarely win and mostly lose.. Of course we know that he'll never produce the best basketball as 1st option (dynasty or dominant champion), aka 0 for 12.

Accordingly, Jalen Williams will need to ascend to franchise player status and dominant super-star status.. He needs to match SGA's scoring just like Kyrie, Wade and AD matched or exceeded Lebron's.

Compare to what ?
To other players playing with mj in the triangle ?
Or mj playing outside the triangle?

Both... MJ's burden in the triangle was much bigger than everyone else's, and also bigger than his burden outside the triangle, based on scoring, apg, rpg, and shot attempts.

Hold on …..
That’s because mj shoot incredibly well in 1992!

But facts is mj did shoot more and had more FTattempt in 1986 outside the triangle…
It just that mj shoot less efficiently in 1986 .

That is the point of the discussion right ?
Did mj shoot less inside or outside the triangle .

I've not posted in this thread for a while, hang on, now MontrealCorp is arguing with fallguy?

Yep, LeBron not being top ten was a bridge too far.

He shot more... higher FGA and higher usage... usage was 36.1 in the triangle during 90-93' Playoff and 35.1 from 85-89'

And higher scoring, apg and rpg

Since Jordan's burden was higher in the triangle, we know that the carry-jobs continued in the triangle compared to before the triangle.

He felt sorry for the drubbing that Fidstar and Matt were taking.. 2 on 1 wasn't enough, so now it's 3 on 1 and they're still getting killed.

Each dispute sheds more light on MJ's goatness.. Recently, we've learned that Jordan's shot attempts, usage, scoring rate, APG and RPG increased in the triangle, so he carried the Bulls just as much in the triangle as previously.. This is contrary to what Phil and others predicted, since they predicted the carry-jobs would stop in the triangle and he wouldn't be scoring champ anymore - MJ proceeded to be scoring champ for 7 of 7 seasons in the triangle.

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8 of 8 "DOMINANT CHAMPIONS" THAT AVERAGED 1 LOSS PER ROUND OR LESS (4 LOSSES MAX) REQUIRED BIGS OR JUMPSHOOTERS AT 1ST OPTION FOR THAT PLAYOFF RUN:

1. 2017 Warriors (16-1).............. DURANT

2. 2001 Lakers (15-1).................. SHAQ

3. 1999 Spurs (15-2)................... DUNCAN

4. 2024 Celtics (16-3)................. TATUM

5. 2023 Nuggets (16-4).............. JOKIC

6. 2007 Spurs (16-4)................... DUNCAN

7. 2002 Lakers (15-4).................. SHAQ

8. 1997 Bulls (15-4)..................... JORDAN

4 0f 4 "DYNASTIES" THAT MOSTLY WON FOR A MATERIAL STRETCH OF 5+ YEARS (I.E. 3 IN 5) REQUIRED BIGS OR JUMPSHOOTERS AT 1ST OPTION:

1. CHICAGO BULLS..................... JORDAN

2. LOS ANGELES LAKERS)........... SHAQ

3. SAN ANTONIO SPURS............ DUNCAN

4. GSW WARRIORS...................... CURRY

[I]^^^ 12 of 12 instances of dynasties or dominant champions (the best basketball) required bigs or jumpshooters at 1st option.

0 of 12 instances had primary ball-handlers as 1st option
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It isn't just Lebron - it's any high-scoring primary ballhandler (ball-dominator) - since they turn everyone into spot-up shooter (which prevents elite roster construction and chemistry), they cannot win with "normal" rosters of 1 franchise player and need super-teams of multiple franchise player.. And yet the suboptimal chemistry still rarely wins and produces perennial losers regardless of cast.. And of course, primary ball-handlers have never produced the BEST basketball, such as dynasties or dominant champions (see previous post).

Since ball-dominators produce the worst chemistry and title frequency, while being incapable of producing the best basketball, they're inferior to the best of other skillsets that can, such as bigs or jumpshooters.. By virtue of being behind all the best bigs and jumpshooters, ball-dominators like Lebron are out of the top 10 all-time.

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THE WORST AMERICAN BASKETBALL EVER:

THE BEST AMERICAN BASKETBALL EVER:

The best American players today are the equivalent of Kevin Johnson (Ja) and Adrian Dantley (Tatum), so the decades of 1-and-done have caught up with us.. The cratering of American basketball since 2011 more than offsets the higher international comp, since American players have always made up the vast majority of the league.

So this is another "case closed" type of evidence, since the entire "b-b-but there's greater international comp" doesn't work, due to the greater cratering of American comp (the vast majority of the league).

What if it's just the worst international basketball and the best international basketball?

Seems a lot more likely.

It's clear that the best American players in today's game (Tatum, Ja, Ant) are vastly inferior to the best American players in 1990 (MJ, Magic, Bird, Isiah, Robinson, Ewing, Barkley, Malone).

If we move later in the 90's, we can add Shaq, Duncan, Hill and Penny.. If we move to the 80's, we can add Kareem, Dr. J, Moses and others.. I haven't even included guys Dominique and Drexler, who were 2nd for MVP to Bird and MJ, respectively.

The best American players have been inferior since around 2011 or so, maybe a little after that.. That's when you could look at the best American players and see the massive lack of talent compared to the 2000's, 90's, or 80's.. This nullifies the "better international comp" argument, since inferior American comp matters a lot more.. Ric Bucher explains in that link I posted earlier.

^^^ American basketball was far superior in previous eras, due to 3 and 4 years of college, and also 5-man basketball skills instead of ball-domination and robot instinct/skills of drive-and-kick.

Btw, MJ was clearly robbed of MVP in 87', 89', 90', 93' and 97'.

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MJ's scoring rate, shot attempts, and usage increased in the triangle:

PER 100 POSSESSIONS

Playoffs

85-89' MJ........ 42.9 pts... 29.7 FGA..... 35.1 usage
90-93' MJ........ 44.4 pts... 33.4 FGA..... 36.1 usage


Finals

91-93' MJ........ 36.3 PPG and 27.4 FGA per game

In addition to Jordan's scoring and shot attempts increasing in the triangle, Jordan's assists and rebounds increased too, and this higher burden in the triangle means that he was carrying the Bulls for all 6 chips just like he did before the triangle.. Phil said that he wouldn't be scoring champ in the triangle, and then MJ proceeded to be scoring champ for 7 of 7 seasons in the triangle.
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Playoffs

13' Wade............... 18.7 PER.. 3.0 bpm.. 1.0 vorp.. 0.108 ws/48
93' Pippen............. 16.9 PER.. 2.0 bpm.. 0.8 vorp.. 0.083 ws/48


Finals

13' Wade................ 19.6 on 47% (outscored opposing #1 option)

96' Pippen.............. 15.7 on 34%
97' Pippen.............. 20.0 on 42%
98' Pippen.............. 15.7 on 41%

Pippen 6 Finals...... 19.0 on 42%

COMPARING SIDEKICK HELP WHILE TRYING TO 3-PEAT

Playoffs

14' Wade..... 18.5 PER.. 0.086 ws/48... 26.2 pts per 100... 56.0 ts (54.8 league avg)... 106 ortg
93' Pippen... 16.9 PER.. 0.083 ws/48... 28.2 pts per 100... 50.0 ts (53.0 league avg)... 102 ortg

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Recent Thread Cliffs

* American basketball has cratered in recent years because Silver's hands-off, spaced-out beginner format doesn't produce the best players anymore like the old-school, international formats of lesser spacing and physicality.. The beginner format produces simpleton "down-hill" skillsets, which produces inferior hoops instinct, IQ and 5-man basketball skills compared to old school formats... All the best teams in history were ball movement teams, and the old school and international formats embody this superior brand of ball more than "Silver-ball".

* MJ's burden increased significantly in the triangle, which proves that the carry-jobs he was executing before the triangle were continued in the triangle, aka higher scoring rate, shot attempts, usage, RPG, APG, and reaching 41 ppg in the Finals to 3-peat (see stats in previous post regarding sidekick stats while trying to 3-peat and also updated triangle stats that include usage).

* If MJ averaged 26 on 35% with 5 TO's per game in a 7-game series loss, it would be called a historic choke, yet that's exactly what Lebron did in the 2008 ECSF, while playing even worse in the 07' Finals and having an unprecedented 3 straight upset losses from 09' to 11' - this constitutes a horrific record with "normal" rosters of 1 franchise player, thus requiring "super-teams" of multiple franchise players.. Nonetheless, his ball-dominance and "imposing spot-up roles" skillset still rarely won and produced perennial losers with every cast.

* The 2020 to 2025 Lakers have enjoyed twice the FT differential as any other team in the league, and also 3x the transactional activity, while also being the only team that hand-picked a top 3 player to join the team with AD and Luka... TLDR: rigged league to get Lebron #5 (carry him to #5) and prop up the fake debate.

* Kobe led the Lakers in scoring for the 2001 and 2002 Western Playoffs and led the team against the Spurs both years (while the Finals were a foregone conclusion)... But he truly proved himself as goat-caliber by defeating max defensive attention (carrying scoring load for playoffs and Finals of title run), which allowed victory with a secondary producer and 1x all-star like Pau, who was considered worse than Bosh, Love and even Jamison - Jamison was 14th for MVP in 08' (ahead of Pau), and he was a rare 20k scorer that outplayed Lebron in the 07' 1st Round with 32/10 on 47%.. Finally, Kobe carried the passing load for the Lakers in every title run and had zero passing help, thus proving that Pippen's measly 5 APG weren't needed and he was just lucky to land alongside prime MJ.

But any other players that never achieve that either are top 2-3-4 on the list of fall guy ….just not Lebron in top is allowed because of hate shrug.

Cherry picking .
Why not use per game , raw totals , or 36m ?
Ah yes because it’s not working .

Why use finals stats and not just playoffs stats ?
Ah yes because mj never reach final without the triangle .

Why not use the 1995-98 stats ?
Fallguy: “Are you crazy , clearly it wouldnt fit my narrative “ !

Good job fallguy…