GOAT NBA Discussion: Biggest fraud poster: fallguy. Super AIDS Containment thread
Phil was a 1st-time nobody coach in 1991, while MJ was the goat candidate that gave him a career by accepting the most restrictive, futile, unknown and hated offenses of all-time.. MJ took lemons and made lemonade.
Well, why did he do that? Is he some kinda beta cuck pussy?
Otoh, LeBron was a man who took his destiny into his own hands.
So, from 1985 to 1996, you only have… dribble data? For one playoff series? The reason averages are important, fallguy, is that it’s a summary statistic for all data points. Not just one 5 game series.
Where did you and/or the YouTube video creator get your data for this pie chart anyway?
Anyone that knows anything about basketball knows that if someone averages 45 ppg and 80% of that was with 1 or no dribbls, then they're an off-ball player... I shouldn't need to post a chart because a cursory glance and bball 101 shows that MJ played off-ball..
A ball-dominator could never average 45 off-ball with even 15% of the points being with 1 dribble or less, let alone 80%... But the problem is that you don't know anything about basketball - you never played and you've been taught a lot of basic stuff itt..... MJ simply played off-ball since he was in high school - he didn't dominate the ball and this is universally known with many coaches, GM's, and players saying exactly that... They asked either Shaq or Kenyon on Gils Arena why the triangle didn't work with anyone else, and the response was "because kats nowadays dribble to much"... Again, you don't realize how dumb you sound asking me to prove that MJ was an off-ball player - it's like asking me to show you that Shaq dunked.. It's extremely dumb.
Jackson simply got lucky that every single championship won by Jordan and Kobe was with him at the helm, even though they both had an equal amount of seasons with other coaches.
That's basically impossible but it's definitely true.
We don't need opinion on this one because the historical record tells the story - Phil joined the Bulls and the Lakers after both teams were on the cusp of a title already with the steepest trajectories in the league, and with MJ and Kobe beginning their primes and peaks.
Well, why did he do that? Is he some kinda beta cuck pussy?
Otoh, LeBron was a man who took his destiny into his own hands.
Cheat codes and stacking the deck is a p*ssy move that reveals you aren't good enough to do it the legit way - it's the definition of not being a man and seeking the little boy way out of having everyone let you win.
There's never been a less-respected and less feared all-timer than Lebron, or a guy that is viewed as being mental midget that cried when he found out his mommy was dating, or froze up in 2011... He's never been in a fist fight in his life, while guys feel free to blow in his ear because they know he'll take it like the b*tch that he is... Try that with MJ and see what happens - but that's the thing - no one would, as Hakeem describes above.
Ultimately, Lebron couldn't win with normal rosters of 1 franchise player, so he started to stack the deck with multiple franchise players and still mostly lost... Do you realize how much of a disaster he was with normal rosters??
He averaged 26.7 on 35% with 5 TO's against the 08' Celtics and 07' Spurs, or the 2010 meltdown and then the shocking upset in 2009 - he was a complete barf-fest with normal rosters of 1 franchise player, so he pursued super-teams with 3 franchise players and still had many bad losses.. So he's a complete fraud and a joke.
Anyone that knows anything about basketball knows that if someone averages 45 ppg and 80% of that was with 1 or no dribbls, then they're an off-ball player... I shouldn't need to post a chart because a cursory glance and bball 101 shows that MJ played off-ball.. A ball-dominator could never average 45 off-ball with even 15% of the points being with 1 dribble or less, let alone
Calm down fallguy — we all know you “played basketball” i.e. rode the bench (and injured teammates? I still want to hear that story).
No one is disputing that Michael Jordan played off-ball within the triangle. What I’m asking you is to provide the data showing that he played off-ball, on average (notice that I’m not asking you to cherry-pick a 5 game series from 1988 here), before he played in the triangle in Chicago.
I am guessing that since you’re getting angry over this, you don’t have any data to support it? Meaning you just made it up? Is that why you lied and didn’t include the ‘86 Celtics series pie chart from the video — because it painted a vastly different story and showed that his assisted rate depended on game strategy like I’ve been saying?
AD outscores LaBron by 2 total point in 2020 playoffs = LaBron was "carried".
Kyrie outscored by 2 points per game in finals, and 22 points over all = LaBron did NOT "carry" Irving.
Explain.
A reminder that outside of Chicago, when Jordan played in a different scheme that didn’t funnel him the ball every possession, he was not able to will himself to a highly assisted 30+ ppg. In the ‘92 Olympics he averaged 14.9 ppg on .451 shooting, and he was carried by Charles Barkley*. In college, when he wasn’t funneled the ball every possession, he averaged 17.7 ppg. This conclusively proves that the scheme, and the role a player plays within that scheme, matters and impacts a player’s scoring and the way they score (e.g. assisted rate).
*Remember, fallguy defines “being carried” as being outscored by a teammate. At least that’s how he defines it when a teammate of LeBron’s outscores him. And since fallguy treats all players the same, that must be true for Jordan as well.
FWIW about this non sense about the triangle …
The 2 highest scoring average season wasn’t under the triangle .
The 2 most total 2Pattempt are by far not under the triangle
The 2 highest total scored points (by far) wasn’t under the triangle.
The 2 highest total FTattempt wasn’t under the triangle .
The 2 highest total 2p made wasn’t under the triangle .
Etc.
Now u can go try found some cherry picking stats using 36m , like you always do to support a narrative but the vast majority of stats you can find all says , outside triangle mj had the ball more often ,
Shoot more
and scored more outside the triangle-> Case close ….
Lebron has the most losses ever with preseason favorites.Can you understand that?That's worse than everyone else in history, just like he lost the most with Finals teams.. No one has a longer list of bad losses or choking credentials.. I can list both if you want.He simply produces underwhelming teams regardless of cast, odds, coach and regardless of unprecedented collusion wit
Maybe it’s because LeBron just reach the most finals.
I wonder if all preseason favorites usually wins the title ?
If not then LeBron is just normal statistically right ?
Jordan was an off-ball player in the 80's... If you don't know that or can't see it, then stop watching basketball because you're wasting your time.. 30 seconds of highlights shows that 80's Jordan is the greatest off-ball player of all-time.. I'm sorry that you don't understand the game enough to see that, because that means you're blind.
I wonder if all preseason favorites usually wins the title ?
If not then LeBron is just normal statistically right ?
Lebron was also the preseason favorite in 2021 by lost a 2-1 lead to Booker in the 1st Round, and then he missed the play-in as the #2 preseason favorite in 2022 and another 1st Round loss in 2024 - so this chart only gets worse if it had all the years on it.
Are you saying that the 2011 Heat weren't the preseason favorite because of the "decision", but for a better reason?.. What would that be exactly?
From 2011 to 2016, every team in the league had "normal" rosters of 1 franchise player, with the only exception being Lebron's "super-teams" of multiple franchise players (3) - that's why they were favored every year, even after losing to the Warriors in 2015, or the Mavs in 2011, or the Spurs in 2014.
Btw, the 2011 Mavs and 2015 Warriors were 8th in preseason odds (+2800), so there was no juggernaut in the West that was the "true" favorite - Lebron's teams were the preseason favorite for 6 straight years because oddsmakers felt they had the best chance to win the title - period.. You guys are making really bad excuses for Lebron underachieving his favored rosters every year, and these bad excuses are driving Lebron lower in my estimation of his ability.
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Yeah bro, we get it that both Kareem and Lebron had a massive ton of help, but Kareem did a lot more with it, such as 6 chips and dynasty (5 in 9), while Lebron went 1 for 6 with AD and mostly lost with everyone else too (never produced a great team and can't produce great chemistry, aka spot-up roles and low assist teams)..Otoh, Kareem produced great chemistry (high assist tea
Again u conflicted something .
Magic carried Kareem ….
Lebron never had a teammates has great as Kareem or magic , but keep thinking Lebron had more help lol …
It’s funny u keep yelling for years that LeBron has far more help compare then mj so mj is the goat .
But Kareem far more help -> doesn’t matter Lebron had AD and couldn’t win ???
So again double standard , Kareem got carried , only 2 final mvp with huge help -#4 all time .
Lebron less help wins 4 ring has the man with 4 final mvp outside of the top 10 …
Great work !
I just can’t imagine how many ring Lebron would had if he had a Shaq or Kareem has a center or even a Kobe , I mean the guy won 4 rings and 4 final mvp , more then all your top 10 but mj ….
Ps: but hey it fits you perfectly to compare AD with players like magic or Kareem lol …
Calm down fallguy — we all know you “played basketball” i.e. rode the bench (and injured teammates? I still want to hear that story).No one is disputing that Michael Jordan played off-ball within the triangle. What I’m asking you is to provide the data showing that he played off-ball, on average (notice that I’m not asking you to cherry-pick a 5 ga
I'm not mad.. Just calling a spade a spade.. Why would I hold back.. You're dumb.. You and Fidstar.
I just showed you the most off-ball buckets ever scored in a series - if nearly 80% of 45 PPG is done with zero or 1 dribbles, then that's the most buckets with zero or 1 dribbles ever done in a series... You're just too dumb to see the 45 ppg part and do the math, or just watch 80's MJ for a few seconds and see how dumb you are.. Either way.
Another thing.. The fact that you and Fidstar are arguing so hard against the off-ball thing means that you obviously lose the argument if I'm right..... Well I'm right and it's common knowledge - 80's Jordan was an off-ball player and he's been an off-ball player for literally his entire career, since junior high.
Again u conflicted something .Magic carried Kareem ….Lebron never had a teammates has great as Kareem or magic , but keep thinking Lebron had more help lol …It’s funny u keep yelling or years that LeBron has far more help compare to j so his the goat .But Kareem far more help -> doesn’t matter Lebron had AD and couldn’t win ???So again double stand
Kareem's Lakers were built through the draft and didn't dilute the opposition, while Lebron plucked the top 3 PER's from 3 different teams in the East and put them on 1 team - he diluted the competition and consolidated power on 1 team... It's pure collusion and deck-stacking - completely fake Finals trips and thank god he was exposed in the Finals for having inferior brand of ball to.... EVERYONE... spurs, mavs, warriors, nuggets, magic
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MJ's shot attempts and scoring rate increased in the triangle:
PER 100 POSSESSIONS
Regular Season
85-89' MJ........ 41.5 pts... 29.5 FGA
90-93' MJ........ 42.0 pts... 31.1 FGA
Playoffs
85-89' MJ........ 42.9 pts... 29.7 FGA
90-93' MJ........ 44.4 pts... 33.4 FGA
MJ shot more in the triangle and scored the same per game, or even higher when the Finals are included:
PER GAME
Regular Season
85-89' MJ........ 32.6 PPG and 23.3 FGA
90-93' MJ........ 31.9 PPG and 23.7 FGA
Playoffs
85-89' MJ........ 35.4 PPG and 24.5 FGA
90-93' MJ........ 34.3 PPG and 25.8 FGA
Finals
91-93' MJ........ 36.3 PPG and 27.4 FGA
FWIW about this non sense about the triangle …
The 2 highest scoring average season wasn’t under the triangle .
His 2 lowest season wasn't under the triangle either... what's your point?
Overall, Jordan's scoring rate and shot attempts increased from 90-93' vs 85-89' - see the stats in previous post above.
In the playoffs, Jordan averaged 45 ppg in the 88' and 92' 1st Rounds.
Btw fall guy think about this .
I’m pro Jordan and thinks clearly his the best .
But if I’m that wrong on Lebron…..maybe I’m totally clueless about MJ ?
Why do you think I’m so right about mj but so wrong about Lebron?
I use the same kinda of analysis.
Only u do not at all ….
You change what is important depending what players you talk about .
That is not how the science method work to find « real objective truth ».
The day u will agree to have a real frame work and apply it to all players identically and respect your results based on the criteria , with no exception because u like this or that player, , we might actually listen a bit more carefully …
^^^ Your observation that Jordan's FGA increased in the triangle confirms that the carry-jobs everyone saw before the triangle continued in the triangle and even more so, since his FGA, points per possession, RPG, APG and championship PPG increased in the triangle.Jordan was also scoring champ for 7 of 7 seasons in the triangle and averaged 41 to 3-peat or 35 in the 91-93' Play
All I see from your two replies for my one post is that you agree with me. MJ averaged less points on more shots, so he got worse as a scorer. Yet the Bulls got better, mainly because his team got better. The main reason being Scottie Pippen.
Ranking Championship odds to where they finished for the season as if they over/under achieved.
You really have no idea about odds.
Here's a clue. Having a guy like 80s MJ on your team gives you a high floor, low ceiling as a team.
Sort of like peak Westbrook.
His 2 lowest season wasn't under the triangle either... what's your point?
Overall, Jordan's scoring rate and shot attempts increased from 90-93' vs 85-89' - see the stats in previous post above.
In the playoffs, Jordan averaged 45 ppg in the 88' and 92' 1st Rounds.
Again you compare all season combine instead season per season because it fits your narrative and you can skew the results kinda …
1985 mj his a rookie , so him taking bit less shots makes sense .
1986 did you put it when MJ played like 25m average taking less shot ?
About 1989 when he play point guard for a good portion of the season while taking less shots (nice 8 assist btw ..)
Why don’t you have 1996 to 98 as well ? Wasn’t that the triangle too ?
When u just take the raw numbers , the totals , nvm your 100 possession stats but just raw combined total .
U clearly see in all stats there is a difference when he play the triangle and when he wasn’t .
The FTattempt are very telling too on how much higher it is outside the triangle !
U might find 1 season as an outlier but the trend is unmistakable….
Kareem's Lakers were built through the draft and didn't dilute the opposition, while Lebron plucked the top 3 PER's from 3 different teams in the East and put them on 1 team - he diluted the competition and consolidated power on 1 team... It's pure collusion and deck-stacking - completely fake Finals trips and thank god he was exposed in the Finals for having inferior brand of
So what ?
Lakers were a better teams and more stack then what LeBron played with .
By your own ranking !
And still LeBron won more mvp final with lesser help …..
Just having curry higher then LeBron , smh .
I mean did LeBron ever team up with a player better then KD or has good ?
But yeah ok , again give a pass for curry for stacking team ….
It's pretty easy to build through the draft when:
1) You trade for Kareem (building through the draft?)
2) You get the number 1 pick in Magic's draft.
3) You have a team in Los ****ing Angeles
Fun fact. Out of the 5 guys top guys in LAL in 1980 only Magic and Nixon were drafted by the Lakers.
