GOAT NBA Discussion: Biggest fraud poster: fallguy. Super AIDS Containment thread

There's never been a worse argument for a player than the opinion of a few dozen journalism majors.

journalism majors that only see certain players as All-NBA if there's winning spotlight (titles).

From now on, posts that cite media accolade will be ignored.. If you can't cite ACTUAL PERFORMANCE from Pippen that compares to Kyrie, Wade, AD or Luka's playoff heroics, dominance and carry-jobs, then you have nothing...

So you obviously have nothing , since Pippen never achieved dominance or elite stats in any series, and was carried in every series.

^^^ you wrote that wrong but it's irrelevant

No one has a more extensive resume of bad losses and choking than Lebron.

You criminally underrate the 2014 Spurs, and 2017/18 Warriors to get those as bad losses. Those teams would all 6-0 the Bulls finals opponents.

Against top teams, Lebron can't carry the star category of scoring, so he needs more star help and hurts a GM's capacity to get defensive help.

Lebron's ball-dominant skillset also imposes spot-up roles upon teammates, so there are no single-digit rookies that grew into meaningful producers on his watch (zero young player development in 22 seasons).

These 2 factors alone put him out of the top 10 all-time, even without considering how the spot-up roles and bad chemistry cannot win with normal rosters of 1 franchise player, and still rarely wins with super-teams, and can never produce the best basketball as 1st option (dynasty or dominant champion).

In 2014, the 37-year old Duncan had all the same age excuses to lose that Lebron had in 2022, so there's no reason to think he would win... The 8-seeded Mavs and fossil Dirk almost beat them in the 1st Round in 7 games, while OKC won a couple games too.

Only the Heat were demolished by record amount despite basically even odds entering the series.. They also had preseason favorite status for the 4th straight year by being the only team in the NBA with multiple franchise players (super-team) compared to normal rosters of 1 franchise player for every other team.

Those Spurs had a normal roster of 1 franchise player that wasn't better than any of the Bulls' Finals opponents... Meanwhile, the 17' Cavs had a sidekick that already destroyed Curry, while Love and Klay cancel out, so there wasn't a big talent gap that plenty of teams overcome all the time.. Jordan's Bulls had talent deficits in every Finals except 97' and 98', where they faced a Jazz team that swept Duncan/Popovich and Shaq's 4 all-star Lakers to make the 98' Finals.. So you're just making excuses.

If Jordan lost a 7-game series while averaging 26.7 on 35% with 5.3 turnovers, it would be considered an epic choke, so the 2008 2nd Round is a black mark for Lebron, while 22 on 35% with 6 TO's is also a black mark in 2007... Or the 21 on 34% meltdown for the last 3 games to lose a 2-1 lead in 2010 2nd Round - this caused the "decision" to start deck-stacking... Then the 2011 Finals, or losing a 2-1 lead to Booker in 21', or being lottery in his prime in 2019... Or getting ragdolled repeatedly by Jokic's inferior roster...

Again, no one has a longer resume of losing and choking than Lebron.. He's only 37% on game-winners in the playoffs and 0% in the Finals (0-7) - he's never scored on the last possession of a 1-possession Finals game!!.. Btw , Lebron had 7 turnovers in the 4th and OT of Game 4 of the 09' ECF and he became a 12 turnover per game player in cluch-time for the series - he also had the horrible defensive blunder by guarding Courtney Lee instead of his position (Hedo).. So Lebron had upset losses or personal bed-wettings/chokes for every year between 2007-2011.. Then he lost with 2 all-star teammates in 14' and 17' by record amount each time... Then lottery in 2019 and ragdolled by Jokic thereafter.

A few dozen = 98?

You raise a great point about All-NBA being pushed towards winning teams. Let's check the other players in the 3rd team that year

Franchise Player Tim Hardaway 34 wins
Petrović 43 wins
Coleman 43 wins
D Rob 49 wins
Pippen 57 wins

Well, maybe not.

Fun fact. Pippen had the most votes in the third team, just missing out on the 2nd team.

It's okay. 98 people don't agree with you from that year. But you're obviously right.

By the way, here's the All Defensive Team from that year.

I always enjoy the bit about how terrible the Mavs were in 2011 and FG always forget to mention that they swept Kobe's Lakers.

You remember the series Kobe only averaged 23/3/2 and got outplayed by Jason Terry.

The 17/18 Warriors would go 6-0 in an 11 game series against the Jordan Bulls.

lol

Why are you including Jordan’s rookie year and the year he broke his foot and averaged 22.7 ppg? Do you think 22.7 ppg with a broken foot is a good representation of his scoring output when he averaged 37.1 ppg the next year when he was healthy? Let’s pretend the person doing this data analysis was intelligent and component with statistics — how do you think they would handle rookie years and years with a broken foot?

*competent

Related, can we cite and share the data on Michael Jordan’s assisted field goal % both before he played in the triangle and when he played in the triangle in Chicago? (Not with the Wizards when he had a fraction of his athleticism of his 20’s)

Kobe had already won 5 titles, so he was going to lose eventually and it's cheap to knock a guy for NOT winning #6, while excusing someone that repeatedly chokes in trying to win his first..

I'm sorry. I wish I was more like you who treats all players the same.

All I see here is that MJ scored less on more shot attempts, yet his team improved a lot. I wonder which player was the main reason that happened?

https://x.com/Thetruth8240/status/189860...

It's the height of bias to knock Kobe for not winning #6 but then give Lebron a pass for choking 3 straight times while failing to win his first from 09-11'.

And we know it was really 5 chokes because of losing a 7-game series in 2008 while averaging 26 on 35% and 5 TO's, or even worse in the 07' Finals.

This type of hypocrisy proves that you fell for a fraud... Klutch Sports, FS1, and ESPN hypnotized you to excuse 35% with 5 TO's to lose in 07' or 08', and then massive choking for 3 straight years to lose as the favorite from 09' to 11'...

They hypnotized you to excuse these 5 chokes in failing to win his first chip, and then knock a guy that already won 5.

I'm sorry. I wish I was more like you who treats all players the same.

^^^ there was no "assisted rate" stat in 1990 to show Phil that this was an assisted bucket and exactly the type of scoring that the triangle required.

Jordan averaged 41 ppg to 3-peat and 35 in the 91-93' Playoffs or Finals, so his PPG increased significantly in the triangle, while his points per possession, rebounds and assists also increased in the triangle - he was also scoring champ for 7 of 7 seasons in the triangle - all of this contrasts with Phil's notion that the triangle would reduce his load and share it with others.. It did the opposite and Jordan carried the load just like always, and even more in the Finals.

Accordingly, Phil was comprehensively wrong about MJ's game, and therefore simply got lucky that MJ was the GOAT, so his scoring skills were conducive for ball movement and assisted by teammates a fair amount - his optimal skills had already grown teammates massively from a lottery roster to the 2nd-best team by the end of the 89' Playoffs before Phil arrived... Phil simply inherited the steepest trajectory in the league and an impending champion, along with the GOAT to turn his unknown offense into a household name.. Phil was a 1st-time nobody coach in 1991, while MJ was the goat candidate that gave him a career by accepting one of the strictest, futile, unknown and hated offenses of all-time.. MJ took lemons and made lemonade.

That’s… interesting. If “there was no ‘assisted rate’ stat” in 1990, how do you know what Michael Jordan’s assisted rate was before Chicago implemented the triangle offense?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evbFHHud...

^^^ When MJ averaged 45 ppg against the 88' Cavs, 42.4% of his buckets were with zero dribbles, aka assisted, so this is a floor level for his assisted rate, since many buckets with 1 or more dribbles were also assisted.

However, telling someone to verify that 80's Jordan played off-ball is like telling someone to see if Shaq dunks a lot, or if Curry shoots a lot of threes... Jordan is the goat off-guard, so he's the goat off-ball player (assisted scorer), while the term "off-guard" is synonymous with shooting guard, so he's the goat jumpshooter (of 2-pointers)..

Jordan's optimal skills had already grown teammates massively from a lottery roster to the 2nd-best team by the end of the 89' Playoffs before Phil arrived... Phil simply inherited the steepest trajectory in the league and an impending champion, along with the GOAT to turn his unknown offense into a household name.. Phil was a 1st-time nobody coach in 1991, while MJ was the goat candidate that gave him a career by accepting the most restrictive, futile, unknown and hated offenses of all-time.. MJ took lemons and made lemonade.

^^^ Your observation that Jordan's FGA increased in the triangle confirms that the carry-jobs everyone saw before the triangle continued in the triangle and even more so, since his FGA, points per possession, RPG, APG and championship PPG increased in the triangle.

Jordan was also scoring champ for 7 of 7 seasons in the triangle and averaged 41 to 3-peat or 35 in the 91-93' Playoffs/Finals... All of this contrasts with Phil's notion that the triangle would reduce his load and share it with others.. It did the opposite and Jordan carried the load more than ever before.

Accordingly, Phil was comprehensively wrong about MJ's game, and therefore simply got lucky that MJ's goat skills were conducive for ball movement and assisted by teammates a fair amount - his optimal skills had already grown teammates massively from a lottery roster to the 2nd-best team by the end of the 89' Playoffs before Phil arrived... Phil simply inherited the steepest trajectory in the league and an impending champion, along with the GOAT to turn his unknown offense into a household name.. Phil was a 1st-time nobody coach in 1991, while MJ was the goat candidate that gave him a career by accepting the most restrictive, futile, unknown and hated offenses of all-time.. MJ took lemons and made lemonade.

So, from 1985 to 1996, you only have… dribble data? For one playoff series? The reason averages are important, fallguy, is that it’s a summary statistic for all data points. Not just one 5 game series.

Where did you and/or the YouTube video creator get your data for this pie chart anyway?

Jackson simply got lucky that every single championship won by Jordan and Kobe was with him at the helm, even though they both had an equal amount of seasons with other coaches.

That's basically impossible but it's definitely true.

Actually, that YouTube video you linked shows a good example of why averages are important: his other example series, the ‘86 Celtics, has Jordan at zero dribbles for only 17% of his field goals (I think, he’s hard to understand and the picture is pixelated. But it’s clearly a much smaller slice than the Cavs chart). Why didn’t you include that data as well?

Since you only chose to include the Cavs pie chart and not the Celtics, you get a skewed, cherry picked, biased perspective on the dribble data (which you’re using as a proxy for assisted fg%). It’s possible that the offensive strategy was different, or Jordan was used differently in other series/games. Averages capture that. Cherry picking one 5 game series across 11 years does not.