GOAT NBA Discussion: Biggest fraud poster: fallguy. Super AIDS Containment thread
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Headfake or Upfake:
Jab-step:
Dan Patrick blatantly lying to prop up Lebron:
https://m.youtube.com/shorts/pYkrpLZTcGI
Lebron has no head fake (shown above) - that's the biggest weapon that he amazingly lacks (a basic fundamental).. He also is lacks a jab step (above), hesitations, stutter step, double crossover, fake spin move, windshield wiper or dream shake arsenal on the post, viable mid-range jumpshooting arsenal, and much more - he has no off-the-cuff shiftiness and pure scoring ability.. His repertoire is "lullaby" moves, which is basically lull you to sleep with a few dribbles before he stiff arms or step-back, aka no bag
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Statistical fact that proves Lebron can't win with Pippen:
Pippen needs a 1st option that can win many series against top teams when Pippen gets 16 ppg on 40%, but Lebron never beat a top 5 SRS team with weak scoring and efficiency from a sidekick.
Ultimately, Pippen needs someone that can carry the scoring load, which can't be Lebron... Lebron is ball-dominant at high scoring levels, so he can't carry the scoring load against top teams.. This inability to carry the "star" category of scoring requires GM's to get more stars and limits defensive help.. Accordingly, Lebron's inability to carry the scoring load prevents elite roster construction, while his "ball-dominator" skillset of turning everyone into spot-up shooter further hampers roster construction.. So it's clear that a mostly transition player, dunker, and bricklayer like Pippen wouldn't be anywhere near enough help for Lebron... Nothing is enough for a player that reduces everyone to spot-up shooter like Lebron does, which is why the story for 22 years is him needing more help.
Ultimately, Pippen needs someone that can carry the scoring load, which can't be Lebron... Lebron is ball-dominant at high scoring levels, so he can't carry the scoring load against top teams.
Quoting this amazing word salad for all posterity.
Since Lebron never successfully carried the scoring load vs top teams, we're forced to speculate why.
Bball 101 indicates that ball-dominance doesn't beat top teams, and ball-dominance is the only thing going when Lebron scores a lot
Otoh, players that can drop 40 while the ball moves and get assisted by teammates carry the scoring load all the time, such as Curry, MJ, Kobe, Duncan, Hakeem or Shaq... They have sufficient brand of ball at high scoring levels to beat top teams
Ultimately, Lebron's inability to carry the "star" category of scoring requires GM's to get more stars and limits defensive help.. Accordingly, Lebron's inability to carry the scoring load prevents elite roster construction, while his "ball-dominator" skillset of turning everyone into spot-up shooter further hampers roster construction..
Hughes was entering his prime with TWO good seasons alongside Arenas that were equal or better than 1990 Pippen:
Again u keep stating a cherry pick season to try justify nonsense about careers of 10+ years .
There is not a person in the world that believes Larry Hughes is a better defender or player than pippen ….
Ps: and for someone that love to trash pippen for being a bricklayer and yet promoting Larry Hughes …Jfc !
FG core strategy -> double standard .
Again u keep stating a cherry pick season to try justify nonsense about careers of 10+ years .
There is not a person in the world that believes Larry Hughes is a better defender or player than pippen ….
That's because Lebron destroyed him just like Love, Westbrook, Ingram and others.
Up until Larry was 25 years old, he was considered better than 25-year old Pippen (1990 Pippen), but once he joined Lebron at 26 years old, he cratered and Pippen passed him.
Similarly, everyone passed Love and Bosh once they joined Lebron.. No one thinks Love is a great player after playing with Lebron, but they did before he joined Lebron.. This is exactly like Hughes.. He was a coveted free agent that Lebron desperately wanted and recruited, but then he cratered alongside Lebron just like everyone else.
And I'm not promoting Larry Hughes - I'm saying Larry Hughes wasn't that good, just like Pippen - they were both trash - Pippen was the SF version of Hughes, aka aids.. Pippen simply lucked out by landing next to the goat, so he could develop and win, while Hughes landed next to a ball-dominator that turned him into spot-up shooter.
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That's because Lebron destroyed him just like Love, Westbrook, Ingram and others.Up until Larry was 25 years old, he was considered better than 25-year old Pippen (1990 Pippen), but once he joined Lebron at 26 years old, he cratered and Pippen passed him.Similarly, everyone passed Love and Bosh once they joined Lebron.. No one thinks Love is a great player after playing with L
Stop it !
U compare an nba 7th year player (27 years old , 2005) to a third year player (24 years old ,1990) ….
And again, Larry was always a massive bricklayer ….all along…
But hey now Thats not important right ?
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04' HUGHES.............. 17.6 PER... 0.088 WS/48... 1.7 OBPM... -0.7 DBPM... 19/7/4
90' PIPPEN................ 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 0.4 OBPM.... 1.4 DBPM... 16/6/5
05' HUGHES.............. 21.6 PER... 0.157 WS/48... 2.4 OBPM.... 1.9 DBPM... 22/6/5.... 1st Team All-D
Regular Season
05' HUGHES......... 21.6 PER... 4.3 BPM... 0.157 WS/48... 3.7 VORP.... 22/6/5 and 2.9 spg... 1st Team Defense
93' PIPPEN........... 19.2 PER... 4.0 BPM... 0.132 WS/48... 4.7 VORP.... 19/8/6 and 2.1 spg... 1st Team Defense
Playoffs
05' HUGHES......... 16.6 PER... 0.083 WS/48... 1.1 OBPM... -0.3 DBPM..... 21/7/4 and 2.0 spg
93' PIPPEN........... 16.9 PER... 0.083 WS/48... 1.0 OBPM.... 0.8 DBPM..... 20/7/6 and 2.2 spg
Stop it !
U compare an nba 7th year player (27 years old , 2005) to a third year player (24 years old ,1990) ….
And again, Larry was always a massive bricklayer ….all along…
But hey now Thats not important right ?
Starting from Hughes's 2nd season at 21 years old, he was already better than 23 or 24-year old Pippen from 89' or 90', and this lasted until he joined Lebron at 27 years old in 2006 - only then did Hughes decline below 90' Pippen... It's a shame because Hughes' had reached 93' Pippen's level right before joining Lebron (stats above).
.04' HUGHES.............. 17.6 PER... 0.088 WS/48... 1.7 OBPM... -0.7 DBPM... 19/7/490' PIPPEN................ 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 0.4 OBPM.... 1.4 DBPM... 16/6/505' HUGHES.............. 21.6 PER... 0.157 WS/48... 2.4 OBPM.... 1.9 DBPM... 22/6/5.... 1st Team All-DRegular Season05' HUGHES......... 21.6 PER... 4.3 BPM... 0.157 WS/48... 3.7 VORP.... 22/6/5 and 2.9 spg... 1s
Larry had 2 good years , the rest is horrible .
And u disregard like 80% of pippen career .
Larry is huge bricklayer , a common critic u aim at pippen but don’t hold to Larry , where pippen is a much better scorer anyway , not even mentioning defender too .
And still u try makes sense that Larry equal pippen shrug .
Continuing on this narrative that is so obvious wrong would just extrapolate to not taking you seriously on every other stats post u could make on other players ….
Just take the lost and move on instead of just getting totally discredit for everything else afterward by pursing this nonsense of Larry is equivalent to pippen .
Larry had 2 good years , the rest is horrible .And u disregard like 80% of pippen career .Larry is huge bricklayer , a common critic u aim at pippen but don’t hold to Larry , where pippen is a much better scorer anyway , not even mentioning defender too .And still u try makes sense that Larry equal pippen shrug .Continuing on this narrative that is so obvious wrong would
Hughes had "horrible" years that were all better than 89' Pippen, and then he reached 90' Pippen in 2004... Then he reached 93' Pippen in 2005 before getting cratered by Lebron.
Sounds pretty simple to me... And yes, they're both bricklayers, except Hughes didn't have worst-ever shooting splits like Pippen in the 96' and 98' Playoffs, and he could also average 15 outside the system (Pippen can't).
I love how the 6'5 185 lb guy is supposedly equal to the 6'8 210 lb guy when their primary role is as a multi-faceted defender. (Especially considering the 6'5 guy is a worse 3pt shooter.)
Tell me you don't understand basketball without telling me you don't understand basketball.
Also the midget Mo Williams and ogre slow-footed Big Z are also supposedly better.
I'ts just lol after lol with this ridiculous partisan. Yay MJ won during the weakest, thinnest era ever. Good job, good effort.
To be clear, MJ was great. That's separate from him being the ultimate opportunist.
To extrapolate from there him being the GOAT with no one else close is the height of myopia.
Hughes had "horrible" years that were all better than 89' Pippen, and then he reached 90' Pippen in 2004... Then he reached 93' Pippen in 2005 before getting cratered by Lebron.Sounds pretty simple to me... And yes, they're both bricklayers, except Hughes didn't have worst-ever shooting splits like Pippen in the 96' and 98' Playoffs, and he could also average 15 outside the sys
actually no.
2002-03 was worst.
again all u do is cherry picking stats from some random years...
Michael Jordan won despite continuing to score 3,000 points in a season. Stats support that non-MJ players that did this lost. As well as players that were on target to do so, but lost earlier in the playoffs in earlier rounds. He played a terrible brand of basketball that lead to losing.
What that tells me is that (for this to happen) MJ must have done it in a very weak era of expansion teams and before the rest of the world caught up and expanded the good player pool to match the number of teams. He was supported by an all time team that without him was still very good, and an all time coach. David Stern also wanted him to win, so helped push that agenda as well. He just found himself in a perfect situation that made winning possible despite his ball hogging style.
Since 2000, only 3 scoring champions reached the Finals, Allen Iverson in 2001, Kevin Durant in 2012 and Steph Curry in 2016. None of them won.
Lost in the First round (8): 2002 Iverson, 2003 T-Mac, 2005 Iverson, 2006 Kobe, 2007 Kobe, 2009 Wade, 2010 Durant, 2017 Westbrook,
Lost in the Second Round (6): 2008 LeBron, 2013 Melo, 2019 Harden, 2020 Harden, 2022 Embiid, 2023 Embiid
Lost in the Conference Finals (3): 2011 Durant, 2014 Durant, 2018 Harden
Didn't make the Playoffs (3): 2004 T-Mac, 2015 Westbrook, 2021 Curry.
Scoring a lot leads to not being successful. Congrats MJ for playing a terrible brand of ball that's not conducive to winning.
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From Sports Illustrated in 2004:
I love how the 6'5 185 lb guy is supposedly equal to the 6'8 210 lb guy when their primary role is as a multi-faceted defender. (Especially considering the 6'5 guy is a worse 3pt shooter.)
Tell me you don't understand basketball without telling me you don't understand basketball.
You're forgetting that Lebron and Pippen play the same position at SF, so Lebron would need the 2-way wing sidekick to be at guard, like Hughes was... That's why Sports Illustrated said that Lebron recruited Hughes to be his "pippen" (above)..
It was the perfect match if we're going by pippen standards, since Hughes was a big-time bricklayer and choker just like Pippen... The only difference is that Pippen lucked out by landing next to the goat, so he could develop and win, while Hughes landed next to a ball-dominator that turned him into spot-up shooter (and cratered him from the 93' Pippen-caliber that he achieved by 05' - see stats from previous post here).
LeBron plays point like Luka, you can slot him anywhere from 1-4.
LeBron is that great, stinks that Hughes was about average: as he showed throughout his career.
Don't forget that Cleveland was his fourth team after Philly and GS discarded him and he rebounded his image in Washington. Also don't forget that he was third in the FA pecking order for his position after Ray Allen and Michael Redd. Pippen would never be in such a spot fwiw.
LeBron plays point like Luka, you can slot him anywhere from 1-4.LeBron is that great, stinks that Hughes was about average, as he showed throughout his career.Don't forget that Cleveland was his [B]fourth[/B] team after Philly and GS discarded him and he rebounded his image in Washington. Also don't forget that he was third in the FA pecking order for his position after Ray A
I honestly don't think any right-minded NBA fan would consider someone equal to Pippen after three teams let him walk in his prime. You do you tho.
Larry Hughes ( already a 7 years NBA player) played 2 years and a half with LeBron in his entire career but hey it’s LeBron fault that he failed lol….
Was out the nba at 31….
Had literally one good year but hey , pippen and him is equivalent ….
I mean seriously.
^^^ those bolded and underlined are opposite statements and contradictory
If Lebron "plays point like Luka", as you stated above, then he's a primary ball-handler, and therefore doesn't play 1 thru 4.... Playing the 1 thru 4 positions requires SG and big man positions, which are primarily off-ball with high assisted rates.. Unfortunately, Lebron is a massive negative playing off-ball (can't play off-ball) - we saw this when Luka joined the team and everyone was positive except Lebron was a massive negative (see pic above).
This inability to be remotely positive off-ball is why Lebron and Luka are primary ballhandlers and have never played off-guard like Klay/Rip/MJ, etc... They're too big and bulky to run off screens or defend guy like Klay off screens.. They also can't play PF or Center for the same reason of being unable to play off-ball with high assisted rates, and do so positively... They aren't exactly scoring 36k as the roll man like Karl Malone, as a simple example.. Luka and Lebron aren't really screen-setters and they don't run off screens either... This inability to play SG or big man is why they've been the primary ballhandler for every team they've ever had and since they were both 8 years old... So no, neither guy can play 1-4 - you said so yourself above in bold.
Don't forget that Cleveland was his fourth team after Philly and GS discarded him and he rebounded his image in Washington. Also don't forget that he was third in the FA pecking order for his position after Ray Allen and Michael Redd. Pippen would never be in such a spot fwiw.
Since every version of Hughes was better than 22 and 23-year old Pippen from 88' and 89', we know that Pippen would've been crushed under the expectation to be a "franchise player" just like the prodigal Hughes was at 19 years old and the #2 pick... Fortunately for Pippen, no one knew if the former walk-on would ever progress past role player status, so his 8-14 ppg at 23 years old was viewed as meeting expectation, while Hughes 15-23 ppg at 21 years old was viewed as insufficient for a top guy.
The bottom line is that Hughes was always better than 89' Pippen, and he reached 90' Pippen by 2004, and then 93' Pippen by 2005... So Hughes was coming into his own until he sacrificed 3 apex years to be reduced in bron-ball.. Edges are always thin for the top 400 players in the world, so any borderline all-star that stops developing for 3 years will see their edge gone and a deficit in it's place at the end of those 3 years.. This is what happened to Hughes.
History shows that secondary producers like Manu, Pippen, Parker, Klay, Murray, Terry or Middleton need "top 10 goats" to win titles, such as Duncan, MJ, Jokic, Giannis, etc.
So Hughes was always going to need at least the same as they had - he needed a top 10 goat to win like all secondary producers, and apparently he never got one.
FYI - among secondary producers, media awards are based on winning spotlight.. Specifically, Tony Parker averaged 14 on 37% in the 03' Finals as the 2nd option, yet Duncan carried him to the title, so he was viewed as an all-star thereafter, or even All-NBA... Secondary producers like Pau, Parker, Manu, Pippen, or Klay need titles to start getting All-NBA, while true franchise players make numerous All-NBA without much playoff success due to their dominance (AD, Love, Bosh, Jokic, MJ, KAT, etc)..
So again, among secondary producers, media awards are based on winning spotlight, and Hughes would've enjoyed this same spotlight if Lebron beat the 08' Celtics and had a dynasty thereafter with Hughes/Mo/Zydrunas/Jamison/Varejao... But instead, Lebron averaged 26 on 35% with 5 TO's to lose a 7-game series to the 08' Celtics, which would be considered the goat choke if anyone else did it.
Ingram played even less... Westbrook too, I'm guessing... Wiggins didn't even get to play a game - he wasn't good enough for Lebron and branded a loser until Curry won with him.
Fortunately, Ingram was still young and before his prime, but Hughes gave up 3 seasons just as he was entering his apex for bron-ball... He didn't realize that he would be told to go stand in the corner, which would crater his assists and role....
Westbrook, Ingram, Wade, Clarkson, IT, Kuzma, Bosh, Love and Jamison all experienced this reduction of themselves as basketball players due to Lebron's skillset of turning everyone into spot-up shooter., aka "bron-ball"... Lebron does the opposite of elevating players - he reduces them as ballplayers by making them "corner dudes"... His skillset necessitates this reduction by needing a live dribble and lacking ability to move off-screens or possess expert jumpshooting skill - these things allow the ball to move, which promotes great chemistry/brand of ball/teammate performance..
