GOAT NBA Discussion: Biggest fraud poster: fallguy. Super AIDS Containment thread
^^^ those bolded and underlined are opposite statements and contradictoryIf Lebron "plays point like Luka", as you stated above, then he's a primary ball-handler, and therefore doesn't play 1 thru 4.... Playing the 1 thru 4 positions requires SG and big man positions, which are primarily off-ball with high assisted rates.. Unfortunately, Lebron is a massive negative playing of
Wrong. You can be a point forward, obviously.
And playing 1-4 corresponds to who you guard, not your offensive role. LeBron can also fill in as a small-ball 5 fwiw, but you couldn't really start him there against true bigs. (At his advanced age you wouldn't want him guarding 1s either, but he def could in his prime.)
You're complaining about the end of Kobe's upset bid against the Suns, but Lebron got away with quitting in the middle of the 2010 ECSF as an OKC-level favorite... He averaged 21 on 34% to lose a 2-1 lead as a historic favorite.
Lebron also got away with playing worse than anyone ever had to lose a 7-game series in the 2008 ECSF - no one ever averaged 35% shooting and 5 TO's, so Lebron's 26 on 35% with 6 TO's in the 08' ECSF and 07' Finals is literally the worst anyone ever played.
Lebron also lost in the 1st Round with the #4 PER (AD) and now Luka as well.. He missed the play-in with AD and Westbrook.. He lost a 2-1 lead to Booker in the 1st Round.. He was lottery with Ingram.. He was lottery with the East all-star center (Zydrunas)...
He also lost 3 fourth quarter leads and was horrific in clutch-time of 09' ECF to lose as an OKC-level favorite - Lebron didn't fulfill his end of the bargain and make the Finals to face Kobe - he couldn't even beat Dwight, and Dwight's team was injured... And then there's the goat choke - the choke of chokes - the 2011 Finals - I don't even needs this trump card to prove that Lebron is a fraud.
Lebron also lost the 14' Finals by record amount despite having the only team in the league with 3 franchise players on 1 team (super-team).. Lebron also played like Iverson and Westbrick to lose the 15' Finals against 1st-timers (who never win Finals)... Then he averaged 16 on 39% for get a 2-1 deficit and need 7 games in the 13' Finals - the Heat never won with Lebron on the floor (zero plus-minus and negative net rating).
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Wrong. You can be a point forward, obviously.
And playing 1-4 corresponds to who you guard, not your offensive role. LeBron can also fill in as a small-ball 5 fwiw, but you couldn't really start him there against true bigs. (At his advanced age you wouldn't want him guarding 1s either, but he def could in his prime.)
You said "Lebron plays point like Luka"
So you meant offensive role, and Lebron is only a primary ballhandler - he's been the primary ballhandler for every team that he ever played for.
Accordingly, the myth that he plays 5 positions is purely false... If he played 5 positions, then he would never have bad fits, but he has the most bad fits of all-time because his skillset of dominating the ball turns everyone into spot-up shooter.
He simply can't play off-ball, so he can't fit with other ballhandlers by playing off-ball - people think he fit with Luka but the 1st Round loss as a massive favorite along with Lebron's massive negative plus/minus proves how bad the fit is.
How is this "partisan"??
05' HUGHES.................. 21.6 PER... 0.157 WS/48... 3.7 VORP... 4.3 BPM... 22/6/5.... 1st Team All-D
90' PIPPEN.................... 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/6/5.... No All-D
09' MO WILLIAMS........ 17.2 PER... 0.165 WS/48... 3.1 VORP... 2.3 BPM... 17/3/4
90' PIPPEN.................... 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/7/5
09' JAMISON................. 20.6 PER... 0.126 WS/48... 2.8 VORP... 1.6 BPM... 22/9/2
90' PIPPEN.................... 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/7/5
06' ZYDRUNAS'.............. 21.9 PER... 0.184 WS/48... 2.1 VORP... 1.6 BPM... 16/8/1 (2 bpg)
90' PIPPEN..................... 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/7/5
Based on PER, BPM, WS/48, VORP, scoring and efficiency, Lebron received 4 guys that were equal or better than 1990 Pippen.
Lebron received 4 guys that were better than 1990 Pippen, but he couldn't develop them because his skillset can't develop young players (turns everyone into spot-up shooter).
Actually, if we went back in time and replaced Shaq, MJ, Robinson, Barkley, Malone and all the best American players with today's best Americans like Ant, Ja, and Haliburton, we would see the quality of the league crater.. A rise in international players can't offset a cratering of the majority and best source of hoops talent (Americans).. Since American basketball (the best source) has cratered and produced far weaker American players than prior eras, we can say conclusively that today's NBA players are worse than prior eras.
You said "Lebron plays point like Luka"
So you meant offensive role, and Lebron is only a primary ballhandler - he's been the primary ballhandler for every team that he ever played for.
Right ... and you can play point from any position.
You can play point guard/forward on offense and guard 1-5 if you're amazing like LeBron.
So he can play point and you can slot him anywhere from 1-4 on the defensive end (in his prime), and even at 5 if the other team isn't playing real size there.
Jokic is a point 5 and can play with a 2 at 1 (as is largely the norm nowadays), but their position is dictated by who they guard at the other end.
History shows that secondary producers like Manu, Pippen, Parker, Klay, Murray, Terry or Middleton need "top 10 goats" to win titles, such as Duncan, MJ, Jokic, Giannis, etc.So Hughes was always going to need at least the same as they had - he needed a top 10 goat to win like all secondary producers, and apparently he never got one.FYI - among secondary producers, media awards
lol….
The Celtics had many hof on there team and lebron had none.
Celtics was a 66 wins regular season to Cleveland 45 wins.
So now we have mo,zydrunas,Hughes,varejao being all of famers but because of lebron they wernt now lol….
Right ... and you can play point from any position.You can play point guard/forward on offense and guard 1-5 if you're amazing like LeBron.So he can play point and you can slot him anywhere from 1-4 on the defensive end (in his prime), and even at 5 if the other team isn't playing real size there.Jokic is a point 5 and can play with a 2 at 1 (as is largely the norm nowadays), b
Point guard is the 1 spot
That's Lebron's skillset
So he doesn't have a frontcourt skillset or a SG skillset because he can't play off-ball... So he only has a point guard skillset - that's his only offensive function, and it limits brand of ball/coaching when your 30 ppg scorer is a ball-dominator.
The results prove the point because Bron-ball underachieved rosters more than anyone in history - this includes losing records with every type of viable roster, such as 3-4 with preseason favorites, 4-8 with all-star teammates, 4-5 with 1 or 2 seeds, 4-6 with Finals teams, and 5 losses with homecourt advantage.
And stop saying Lebron is great - I mean, you can keep saying it but you sound like a fool... It isn't "great" to need opposing franchise players at 2nd and 3rd option, and still mostly lose .. Going 2 for 4 with Wade/Bosh isn't top 150, let alone GOAT... At least 150 players would do better than 2 for 4 with Wade/Bosh, or 1 for 4 with Love/Kyrie, or 1 for 6 with AD.. Lebron barely won 50 games with the preseason favorite, so he fell to Finals underdog every year.. His Finals underdog status was due to weak regular seasons (bad basketball), since his rosters were initially favored as the preseason favorite..
So stop regurgitating the fraud and lies - they'll keep getting busted up with the facts about his career failure of needing to team up with opponents and still being a perennial loser.. His skillset literally turns everyone into spot-up shooter, so he needs more help regardless of cast.
a point guard skillset in a 4's body is a huge win
lol u
lol….
The Celtics had many hof on there team and lebron had none.
Celtics was a 66 wins regular season to Cleveland 45 wins.
So now we have mo,zydrunas,Hughes,varejao being all of famers but because of lebron they wernt now lol….
The Cavs' cast was proven great when they almost beat the 08' Celtics despite Lebron playing worse than anyone ever had.. Jordan's Bulls would get swept by the worst team in the league if Jordan averaged 26 on 35% with 5 TO's, yet the 08' Cavs took the champs to 7 games... Let that sink in.
Again, no one ever shot 35% with 5 TO's - only Lebron played that badly, yet the Cavs still nearly won because they had a top defense and numerous veteran all-defenders or all-stars (Zydrunas, Hughes, Ben Wallace, Szczerbiak, and Varejao) - this group had better defensive ranking and scoring help than the 1st three-peat Bulls (bulls never had a 3rd scorer like the 06-10' Cavs).
lol….
The Celtics had many hof on there team and lebron had none.
Celtics was a 66 wins regular season to Cleveland 45 wins.
So now we have mo,zydrunas,Hughes,varejao being all of famers but because of lebron they wernt now lol….
Btw, Lebron is a bad floor-raiser because he only floor-raised the Cavs to 45 wins in Year 5 (2008) despite having a 2x all-star center and Pippen-like acquisition.. They needed to add ANOTHER all-star in 2009 to become a true contender... Mo's addition transformed the team, just like AD's... Then the 2010 Cavs added another 2x all-star that was a better scorer than Pippen to play 3rd option (Jamison)... So the Cavs had more help than the 1st three-peat Bulls, yet they were upset twice as an OKC-level favorite in 09' and 10'.. So Lebron never "ruled the East".. He was upset twice as an OKC-level favorite, which forced him to run away and put the top 3 players in the conference on 1 team (cheat).. The dumb media and fans have him credit for winning the conference after this.
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But he can't play like a 4.
He can only play like a 1.
He ain't getting 36k as the roll man like Karl Malone, and he ain't getting that running off screens either like MJ or Klay.
So that leaves us with frontcourt ball-dominance - it's abnormal ball-dominance for a frontcourt player, so the "turn everyone into spot-up shooter" effect is magnified.
Since Lebron's high-scoring primary ball-handler skillset (aka "ball-dominator" skillset) turns everyone into spot-up shooter, he prevents elite roster construction, young player development, great chemistry, and ultimately, great teams...
The results prove the point because Bron-ball underachieved rosters more than anyone in history - this includes losing records with every type of viable roster, such as 3-4 with preseason favorites, 4-8 with all-star teammates, 4-5 with 1 or 2 seeds, 4-6 with Finals teams, and 5 losses with homecourt advantage...
Lebron has been everyone's ragdoll despite every type of star teammate and super-team.. He was a perennial loser at every stop, and had the neediest teams of all-time, BY FAR
Since 2000, only 3 scoring champions reached the Finals, Allen Iverson in 2001, Kevin Durant in 2012 and Steph Curry in 2016. None of them won.Lost in the First round (8): 2002 Iverson, 2003 T-Mac, 2005 Iverson, 2006 Kobe, 2007 Kobe, 2009 Wade, 2010 Durant, 2017 Westbrook,Lost in the Second Round (6): 2008 LeBron, 2013 Melo, 2019 Harden, 2020 Harden, 2022 Embiid, 2023 EmbiidLos
Out of all the major stat categories, scoring is the stat that most closely correlates with "good" players or "stars", which correlate with winning.
So scoring is more closely-correlated with winning than any other stat.
However, history shows that only the BEST passer can win as assist champ (Magic), and this goes for scoring too (Jordan).. So your point about scoring champ is a non-point, while your larger point about scoring not being correlated with winning is absurd and maybe the most misguided thing stated itt thus far.. Scoring = star players = more winning.
Finally, it matters that some players can carry the "star" category of scoring, since this requires less star help and allows GM's to find defensive help or good role players.. So Lebron's inability to carry the scoring load prevents elite roster construction, while his aforementioned "ball-dominator" skillset of turning everyone into spot-up shooter further hampers roster construction.
Lebron can't carry the scoring load vs top teams because ball-dominance doesn't beat top teams and that's the only thing going when Lebron scores a lot.. This is why he never carried the scoring load on the championship level (never defeated max defensive attention) and never carried weak help over top teams (never beat a top 5 SRS team with weak scoring & efficiency from sidekick).. Otoh, great off-ball players like Curry, Duncan, Shaq or MJ drop 40 while the ball moves, so they have sufficient brand to carry the scoring load vs top teams and therefore win with less (i.e. 94' Hakeem, 03' Duncan, 15' Curry, Jordan's 6 titles, and a few more one-offs by other guys).
I will admit that the Pacers losing last night was a disappointment.. But even when SGA wins, it was still a big team underperformance that we have come to expect from a ball-dominator brand of ball.
And it on't be surprising that the first high-scoring primary ball-handler (ball-dominator) to ever win with a "normal" roster of 1 franchise player beat the weakest Finals comp ever.. And Jaylen could ascend to franchise player status anyway.
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Imagine the huge failure if OKC loses to a +500 underdog, yet Lebron did this twice in 09' & 10.
So Lebron never "ruled the East" because he was embarrassed twice as an OKC-level favorite, which forced him to put the top 3 players in the conference on 1 team (the "decision").. Somehow he got props for winning the conference after that.
This "decision" created a record 6 straight preseason favorites from 11' to 16' (previous high was 3), and a sidekick to outplay the league MVP... These unprecedented advantages required another unprecedented advantage to overcome it (KD's), but Lebron's advantage lasted twice as long (11-16' vs 17-19').
I will admit that the Pacers losing last night was a disappointment.. But even when SGA wins, it was still a big team underperformance that we have come to expect from a ball-dominator brand of ball.And it on't be surprising that the first high-scoring primary ball-handler (ball-dominator) to ever win with a "normal" roster of 1 franchise player beat the
Miami heat 2022 ?
6-7 player in the double digit scoring.
Isn’t that a good brand of basketball?
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APPLES TO APPLES
Back-to-Back Runs to the WCF at 22-23 Years Old - KJ vs ANT
Regular Season
89' and 90' KJ'........... 21.5 per... 0.191 ws/48... 4.6 obpm... 0.0 dbpm... 59.1 ts ()
24' and 25' ANT........ 19.9 per... 0.135 ws/48... 3.6 obpm... 0.2 dbpm... 58.5 ts ()
Playoffs
89' and 90' KJ'........... 21.4 per... 0.169 ws/48... 5.2 obpm... 0.6 dbpm... 58.2 ts ()
24' and 25' ANT........ 21.3 per... 0.163 ws/48... 4.7 obpm... 1.7 dbpm... 58.1 ts ()
CONCLUSION:
A league with better Americans like Shaq, MJ and Robinson is tougher than a league where the best American is worse than KJ (above)..
Since Americans are still the majority of the NBA, and since American basketball has devolved from MJ to KJ, we know that today's NBA player is worse on average than previous eras..
Miami heat 2022 ?
6-7 player in the double digit scoring.
Isn’t that a good brand of basketball?
Warriors had a similar trash cast of reputed losers (Wiggins, Poole) - Curry carried buns to the title because he could carry the "star" category of scoring... So he needed less stars and could win with bums.. Otoh, we know that Lebron can't carry the scoring load vs top teams, and therefore needs a bunch of star teammates (lebron can't carry scoring load because he's too ball-dominant at high scoring levels to beat top teams).
Out of all the major stat categories, scoring is the stat that most closely correlates with "good" players or "stars", which correlate with winning.So scoring is more closely-correlated with winning than any other stat.However, history shows that only the BEST passer can win as assist champ (Magic), and this goes for scoring too (Jordan).. So your point about scoring champ is a
- Except for lebron
- maybe it just wasnt how lebron sees the game , doesn’t mean he couldn’t score more aka game 1 2018 final .
Ending up 34/8/10 with Kevin love at second option vs a goat caliber team ?..
Cant carry the load lol…
2015 lead all stats for both team in the final and had Timofey Mozgov or j.r. Smith has his number 2 !,,
Let me guess 2 all of gamer lol ?…..
The none sense u spew is amazing .
Each time he lead big he loses and u criticize him for it because he had a shitty team.
Each time he sharing the ball to good player (having a leveling field) u criticize him for winning because he didn’t scored enough and should of been more selfish , something you always criticize him for lol…
Warriors had a similar trash cast of reputed losers (Wiggins, Poole) - Curry carried buns to the title because he could carry the "star" category of scoring... So he needed less stars and could win with bums.. Otoh, we know that Lebron can't carry the scoring load vs top teams, and therefore needs a bunch of star teammates (lebron can't carry scoring load because he's too ball-
So what ?
Is Miami better then the pacers ?
Ps: u keep saying lebron had the greatest choke job ever in 2011.
Shouldnt the Mavs be the worst team in the final ever ?
Which is it , they were good or bad ?
Cant be both depending if LeBron was implicated or not …..
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Ending up 34/8/10 with Kevin love at second option vs a goat caliber team ?..
Cant carry the load lol…
^^^ He never won that way.
He never beat a top team while carrying the scoring load.
Specifically, he never successfully carried the scoring load on the championship level, and he never carried weak help over top teams (never beat a top 5 SRS team with weak scoring and efficiency from a sidekick).
The reason why Lebron can't successfully carry the scoring load vs top teams is because ball-dominance loses to top teams, and ball-dominance is the only thing going on when Lebron scores a lot.
- Except for lebron- maybe it just wasnt how lebron sees the game , doesn’t mean he couldn’t score more aka game 1 2018 final .Ending up 34/8/10 with Kevin love at second option vs a goat caliber team ?..Cant carry the load lol…2015 lead all stats for both team in the final and had Timofey Mozgov or j.r. Smith has his number 2 !,,Let me guess 2 all of gamer lo
Lebron has all-star teammates for his entire career, so he never had a shitty team.
Lebron had 3 years to develop a veteran high seed before entering his first playoffs in 2006, which included the East all-star center and an acquisition that was better than 1990 Pippen on both sides of the ball.
So he never had shitty teams... In 2018, he had the best sidekick in the conference with Love, who was the only perennial all-star sidekick in the conference.
In 2010, Lebron had a 7th year organic juggernaut that included a better scorer than Pippen at 3rd option and better defense than the 1st three-peat Bulls.
Then he was lottery with Ingram, Caruso, Zubac, Kuzma, KCP, Josh Hart and Rondo.
Again, he never had a shitty team.. He always had all-star teammates and great veteran casts.. He never had to lead rookie casts in the playoffs or casts with zero accolades like MJ did.. MJ had to lead a 30-win team in the playoffs, which no one in history had to do.
I think that maybe Lebron's teams being pre-season favorites might be because...... they had Lebron on them.
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2010 Lebron....... #1 PER.... #1 BPM.... #1 WS/48.... #1 VORP
2010 Wade......... #2 PER.... #2 BPM.... #2 WS/48.... #2 VORP
^^^ that's like Bird/Magic teaming up - that's how Lebron became preseason favorite.
I think that maybe Lebron's teams being pre-season favorites might be because...... they had Lebron on them.
Lebron became the preseason favorite by doing the "decision" to put the top 3 PER's in the league on 1 team (3 of the top 4).. Being the only team with 3 franchise players on 1 team (super-team) produced a record 6 straight preseason favorites from 11' to 16'.
Otoh, Jordan became the preseason favorite in 92' by winning without preseason status in 91'.. Once Jordan won with a roster that wasn't perceived to be that good, he was the favorite with that roster thereafter.
That's all very nice, but Lebron is still a much better player than Jordan ever was. Perhaps if Jordan was born 20 years later they'd be comparable, but we'll never know.
That's all very nice, but Lebron is still a much better player than Jordan ever was. Perhaps if Jordan was born 20 years later they'd be comparable, but we'll never know.
Regular Seasonhttps://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hornaje01.html...... 17.7 PER.. 2.9 bpm.. 0.153 ws/48.. 42.1 vorp... 15/3/5 on 58.2 tsBasketball-Reference.comJeff Hornacek Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Draft Status and more | Basketball-Reference.comhttps://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/thompkl01.html................ 16.4 PER.. 0.7 bpm.. 0.110 ws/48.. 14.4 vorp... 19/3/2 on 57.5 tsBasketball-Reference.comKlay Thompson Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Draft Status and more | Basketball-Reference.com
Playoffshttps://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hornaje01.html...... 16.5 PER.. 3.1 bpm.. 0.145 ws/48.. 14.1 vorp.. 15/4/4 on 57.5 tsBasketball-Reference.comJeff Hornacek Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Draft Status and more | Basketball-Reference.comhttps://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/thompkl01.html................ 14.4 PER.. 0.7 bpm.. 0.091 ws/48.... 3.1 vorp.. 19/3/2 on 56.0 tsBasketball-Reference.comKlay Thompson Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Draft Status and more | Basketball-Reference.com
^^^ Curry won 67 and 73 games with a sidekick that produced less than Jeff Hornacek and a roster that no one thought was good (+2800 preseason odds).
Unfortunately, he gets no credit for carrying a weak cast because today's generation is results-oriented, so 70 wins = stacked, even though the only thing that has ever won 70 games is goat CHEMISTRY (bulls, warriors).
This matters because it means that KD didn't join a "stacked" roster and the Warriors were playing catch-up in the talent department... Lebron's "decision" gave him the only team with 3 franchise players on 1 team (super-team), along with a record 6 straight preseason favorites and a sidekick to outplay the MVP... These unprecedented advantages required another one to stop it (KD's), and they make Lebron's rings just as fake as KD's.. They both enjoyed unprecedented advantages, except Lebron's lasted twice as long (11-16' vs 17-19')...
Since both teams were loaded, the 17' Finals should've been a clash of titans like the 80's Celtics/Lakers, but Lebron only won 53 games, so they were big underdogs... Lebron's history is to barely win 50 games with the preseason favorite from 11' to 16', thus falling to Finals underdog... So his Finals underdog status is due to weak regular seasons (bad basketball), and not his rosters, since the rosters are initially favored as the preseason favorite..
That's all very nice, but Lebron is still a much better player than Jordan ever was. Perhaps if Jordan was born 20 years later they'd be comparable, but we'll never know.
Fallguy is yet to comprehend that LeBron has actually outperformed the odds when he's been the preseason favourite. He also outperformed Kobe.
He failed at Grade 3 math when the numbers were put in front of him and couldn't understand it.
