GOAT NBA Discussion: Biggest fraud poster: fallguy. Super AIDS Containment thread
Look if you make an AS Team or get an award one time in your career you’re better than Scottie Pippen. Those are just facts
lol at Mo being seen as "really good" before LeBron. That's like saying "Jordan Poole is really good because he averaged 18/6.
Poole was never a full-time starter and couldn't pass or shoot, while Mo was already a borderline all-star before joining Lebron and growing by leaps and bounds each year... You posted comparables of other guys, yet Poole's numbers aren't anywhere near Mo's - he never reached a 17 PER, or above a 1.0 BPM, or full-time starter.
look at the advanced stats. Mo terrible before LeBron. Good for his two full seasons with LeBron. Terrible afterwards.
1) Mo had 17 PPG and 17 PER before Lebron, and`17 PPG and 17 PER with Lebron..
2) Meanwhile, his WS/48, VORP, OBPM, and TS were growing by leaps and bounds prior to Lebron, so 2009 was a part of this ascension toward Mo's peak.
3) Unfortunately, he was never healthy after Lebron - injuries destroyed his career, as the games played column shows:
That's it:
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from the CREATORS of all these advanced stats:
In a later chapter of Basketball on Paper, Oliver emphasized that Offensive Ratings shouldn't be viewed in a vacuum. Introducing a concept he called "Skill Curves", he acknowledged that a player's ORtg needed to be judged in conjunction with his Usage Rate, a measure of how big a role the player fills in his team's offense. The bigger the role, the more difficult it is to maintain a high ORtg; the smaller the role, the easier it is to be highly efficient. Because of this, Oliver stressed that a player's ORtg should primarily be compared to other players in a similar role/usage.
^^^ Jon Barry never reached double-figures in PPG and averaged 5.7 ppg for his career..
This means that basketball-reference.com and yourself are making the same mistake that I spoke about earlier, i.e. PER, BPM, VORP and WS/48 are largely based on a player's individual ORtg, which can only be compared among players of similar role/usage (as the quote shows above).
So stop comparing bums that couldn't even average 6 ppg for their careers to real scorers and all-stars like Mo...
Accordingly, I've been right on every single point itt and will continue to be - I'm on the right side of the larger issue, so the facts and stats will continue to support me.... Btw, in addition to the usage issue, the WS comparison above is also faulty because it's based on a comparison of win share, which is associated with WINS - winning teams yield greater win share for its players.. A player that gets 10 win shares on a losing team is more impressive than a bench player that gets 10 win shares on the league favorite, aka Mo would have more seasons with high WS if he played for more winning teams - but the only star that he played with was Lebron.. This wins correlation issue is why the WS comparison that you posted is BS, in addition to the usage issue (which is a bigger issue)... Winning also impacts BPM, since winning teams generally play better defense, and team defense is part of the DBPM calculation, thereby tainting BPM. Nearly all of Mo's increase in BPM was due to DBPM, which was due to the Cavs' #3 defense.
(btw, the WS comparables for Pippen compare him to far higher usage guys like Dominique, Dantley, etc.. lol, smh... they also have Shawn Marion and Schrempf in there, which is more appropriate.
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Look if you make an AS Team or get an award one time in your career you’re better than Scottie Pippen. Those are just facts
In 1990, Pippen averaged 16 ppg and 5 assists on weak efficiency, which would struggle to make all-star on a losing team.. The only reason that he made all-star is because the Bulls won 55 games and were in the spotlight because of MJ.
History shows that Pippen needed 55 wins to make all-star and 67 wins to make All-NBA in 1992, while MJ made All-NBA with 38 wins...
Similarly, Klay needed 67 wins for his "less than Hornacek" production to make all-star and All-NBA ... History shows that career 2nd options can't make All-NBA with losing teams (almost no exceptions) and generally need winning spotlight or far better records than 1st options to get media accolade.. Essentially, career 2nd options that won titles are the most overrated players ever.. In Pippen's case, he never played above a Larry Nance level, but the winning spotlight inflated him to all-time status and media accolade.
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Wade spotted Lebron a 2-0 lead in the 2011 Finals with these plays:
This was Lebron's reaction to Wade taking over Game 2 and getting a 2-0 lead - Wade was clearly the FMVP:
So I think that Lebron quit because he realized after Game 2 that Wade would get FMVP.
Here's AD and Kyrie also saving Lebron:
SUMMARY: All of Lebron's teammates saved him and won titles for him (except Lebron's choke in 2011 ruined Wade's gift), while Pippen never hit a big shot and averaged 10-30 ppg less than MJ in every series of their career:
CAREER FINALS
Jordan...... 34 ppg... 6.0 apg... 2.8 TO.. 48%.. goat clutch
Pippen..... 19 ppg... 5.9 apg... 3.3 TO.. 42%.. zero clutch (worst-ever)
CAREER PLAYOFFS WITH BULLS
Jordan...... 33 ppg... 5.7 apg... 3.1 TO.. 49%
Pippen..... 18 ppg... 5.3 apg... 2.9 TO.. 45%
Those are mostly singe-digit PPG and low usage bench players that aren't comparable to starters and all-stars like Mo...
Bballref simply goes against their own rules by comparing guys of that have vastly different roles/usage.. You can't compare 6 ppg bench players to 17 ppg all-stars..
So the WS comparison that Fidstar posted is bogus (irrelevant)
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In 2009, Mo Williams turned a 45 win loser into a 66-win favorite by being better than 1990 Pippen across the board and providing the spacing needed to unlock LeDrive's game to MVP level.. Otoh, Pippen's bricklaying would never fit with LeDrive and Pippen told Rachel Nichols that he can't space the floor or play that role.
Mo Williams produced the best chemistry that Lebron ever had, but it still required Lebron to carry the scoring load, which Lebron can't do against top teams (too ball-dominant at high scoring levels).. Accordingly, he lost with 18 o 38% from Mo, while MJ always won with that from Pippen and worse team defenses..
After the upset loss in 2009, Lebron was upset again in 2010 despite adding Jamison/Shaq to a 66-win league favorite - this is a mini version of adding KD to a 73-win team.. Jamison was a better scorer than Pippen, so it's pretty nice to have a better scorer than Pippen at 3rd option and better defenses than the 1st three-peat Bulls - Lebron had better help on both sides of the ball.
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09' MO............. 2.3 BPM... 0.165 WS.48... 3.1 VORP... 17.2 PER
16' KLAY........... 1.8 BPM... 0.144 WS/48... 2.5 VORP... 18.6 PER
Curry needed less talent because his skillset produces better chemistry and ball movement.. It's intuitive.
the CONSENSUS was that the 15' Warriors weren't a good roster, such as +2800 preseason odds and a lower producer than Hornacek at 2nd option.. So the 67 and 73 wins means that Curry did a goat thing, not Lebron.. Lebron doesn't deserve props for beating a 1-man team with the only "big 3" super-team in the league and the preseason favorite.
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Go see your doctor. You probably need medication. This is actually not a joke. At least try meeting with a mental health counselor and discussing this thread with them.
Those are mostly singe-digit PPG and low usage bench players that aren't comparable to starters and all-stars like Mo...
Bballref simply goes against their own rules by comparing guys of that have vastly different roles/usage.. You can't compare 6 ppg bench players to 17 ppg all-stars..
So the WS comparison that Fidstar posted is bogus (irrelevant)
I love the fact u double down on nonsense cherry picking stats that mo had 1 season AS with a career high of 17 ppg and you disregard is 12 other years non all stars with like 12 ppg average lol …
Yes your maths checks out 1 > 12 .
Ps: not mentioning you use a dubious voting recognition as facts when you systematically denied them valid for the players you hate ….
« Double standards » (your nickname ) fallguy .
Recent thread cliffs.
Go see your doctor. You probably need medication. This is actually not a joke. At least try meeting with a mental health counselor and discussing this thread with them.
^^^ always the last resort of a Lebron fraud victim clinging to anything they can
But this thread has 25k posts, so if you're still trying to stop it, then you're the one that's doing the same thing and expecting a different result, aka crazy.. So at least try meeting with a mental health counselor and discussing this thread with them
I love the fact u double down on nonsense cherry picking stats that mo had 1 season AS with a career high of 17 ppg and you disregard is 12 other years non all stars with like 12 ppg average lol …Yes your maths checks out 1 > 12 .Ps: not mentioning you use a dubious voting recognition as facts when you systematically denied them valid for the players you hate ….« D
It's like I was telling Fidstar, Mo was growing by leaps and bounds every year, and his peak stats in 2009 were part of this yearly growth, but then injuries destroyed his career thereafter.
But it shouldn't matter that Mo had a short prime because Lebron was an OKC-level favorite with Mo in 2009 - Lebron caught the best version of Mo, and they were was supposed to win in 2009... Unfortunately, Lebron was exposed at 38 ppg by being too ball-dominant at that scoring level to beat top teams, and then he also had his first major choke, aka 7 TO's in the 4th of Game 4, which swung the series.. Lebron turned into a 12 TO per game player in clutch time of that series.. Lebron said himself that he "f*cked up and lost in 2009" - he said that himself.. He had no diversity back then, aka no post game, zero mid-range, weak jumper - only a downhill player.... Again, the upset loss in 2009 was like OKC losing to the Pacers in this year's Finals, so it was an all-time upset (-700 ffavorite).
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The best centers and rim protection that Lebron and MJ had:
96' Longley.............. 9/5 and 1.4 blocks.... -2.0 OBPM
89' Cartwright....... 12/7 and 0.5 blocks... -3.1 OBPM
05' Zydrunas......... 18/9 and 2.1 blocks..... 0.3 OBPM*
10' Shaq................. 12/7 and 1.2 blocks..... 0.8 OBPM
13' Bosh................. 17/7 and 1.4 blocks..... 1.5 OBPM*
15' Mozgov............ 11/7 and 1.2 blocks..... 0.4 OBPM
19' McGee............. 12/8 and 2.0 blocks..... 0.3 OBPM
* all-star
CONCLUSION: in addition to superior scoring help and an extra star/3rd option, Lebron enjoyed superior rim protection and centers
Mo grew leaps and bounds all the way up to the 128th best WS/48 and 86th highest VORP
Here's his advanced stats for his time pre-Cleveland. **** all "climbing" other than standard, not a rookie anymore stuff.
Cherry picking stats
Grant was the rebounder then it was rodman, not centers for the bulls.
(Ps who was the best rebounder in the league for the 1996 + years ?)
89 Jordan didn’t win anything anyway as well.
Regular stats means nothing remember , it’s only playoffs that matters .
I’ll stop there …..
It's like I was telling Fidstar, Mo was growing by leaps and bounds every year, and his peak stats in 2009 were part of this yearly growth, but then injuries destroyed his career thereafter.But it shouldn't matter that Mo had a short prime because Lebron was an OKC-level favorite with Mo in 2009 - Lebron caught the best version of Mo, and they were was supposed to win in 2009..
I see , so u complain lebron do too much when he have great stats but when he do less and play more with his teammates u complain he didn’t dominate enough ….smh.
Furthermore where u put “prime mo “in the top 75 best players ever ?
Top 150 ? Top 200?
Get a grip …..lebron lost with mo because mo sucked terribly , again look at the playoffs stats shrug….
Why would I exclude Kyrie and Wade? That's your answer - Dwade, Kyrie, and AD - that's all of Lebron's 2nd options and they had better ppg, efficiency, PER, WS/48, OBPM, and ORTG.And Jamison had better ppg, rpg, and true shooting for his entire career than Pippen.. And outside the system, every 2nd and 3rd option that Lebron had for 22 seasons was better than Pippen.In additio
We leave out those players because u don’t compare those players with mo , Kevin love or any other nonsense players u love to compare with pippen ….
Nice try to deflect ….
We leave out those players because u don’t compare those players with mo , Kevin love or any other nonsense players u love to compare with pippen ….
You asked me to name teammates of Lebron that had better stats than Pippen for a 3-year period alongside Lebron, and I chose AD, Wade and Kyrie.
You're saying that I can't use them because...... why again?... bs... you lost.. i'm right.. you're wrong... so there's 3 guys to answer your question - AD, Wade, and Kyrie had better advanced stats, and other guys like Jamison had better ppg, rpg and efficiency.
Pippen was worse than everyone:
Career rankings:
PER
4. AD
24. Wade
36. Kyrie
67. Love
76. Bosh
148. Pippen
WS/48
15. AD
75. Love
80. Kyrie
82. Wade
89. Bosh
145. Pippen
BPM
17. AD
27. Wade
35. Kyrie
38, Pippen
67. Love
144. Bosh
OBPM
14. Kyrie
23. AD
31. Wade
36. Love
96, Pippen
113. Bosh
BPM includes team defense, so based on the stats that only measure the player like PER, WS/48, OBPM, or peak VORP, Pippen is around #125 all-time... Pippen also wasn't in the top 250 for true shooting.
Cherry picking stats
Grant was the rebounder then it was rodman, not centers for the bulls.
(Ps who was the best rebounder in the league for the 1996 + years ?)
89 Jordan didn’t win anything anyway as well.
Regular stats means nothing remember , it’s only playoffs that matters .
I’ll stop there …..
The 1st three-peat Bulls were 15th, 13th and 12th in rebounds, while the 2007-2010 Cavs were 2nd, 3rd, 7th, and 11th:
Good rebounders on 1990-1993 Bulls:
Grant
Pippen
Good rebounders on 2006-2010 Cavs:
Boozer
Gooden
Zydrunas
Varejao
Shaq
Jamison
Ben Wallace
The 2006 to 2010 Cavs had far superior rebounding help, rim protection, defenses and scoring help.
Mo grew leaps and bounds all the way up to the 128th best WS/48 and 86th highest VORPHere's his advanced stats for his time pre-Cleveland. **** all "climbing" other than standard, not a rookie anymore stuff.
^^^ your chart shows that Mo increased significantly from 07' to 08' in every category, so the increase in 09' can't be so special when he was already growing by leaps and bounds previously - it was the same age that Hughes, Pippen and many other players began peaking.
And you're forgetting the most important part that Mo increased Lebron's numbers significantly across the board (PER, BPM, WS/48, VORP, TS, ORTG).. Mo's spacing exploded Lebron's game and taught every coach thereafter what Lebron NEEDS.. it's a weakness, since great jumpshooters like SGA, MJ, and Kobe can just shoot over packed paints, so they don't need the spacing and can win with crap 3-point shooting.
^^^ your chart shows that Mo increased significantly from 07' to 08' in every category, so the increase in 09' can't be so special when he was already growing by leaps and bounds previously - it was the same age that Hughes, Pippen and many other players began peaking.And you're forgetting the most important part that
Mo, slightly improved to the quality of the 4th best guy on a good team.
He then joined LeBron and got better (significantly) and became an all star.
If you want to talk leaps and bounds...
Anyway, enough Mo talk.
Thoughts on Kukoc > Wade + Bosh?
You asked me to name teammates of Lebron that had better stats than Pippen for a 3-year period alongside Lebron, and I chose AD, Wade and Kyrie.You're saying that I can't use them because...... why again?... bs... you lost.. i'm right.. you're wrong... so there's 3 guys to answer your question - AD, Wade, and Kyrie had better advanced stats, and other guys like Jamison had bett
lol , no one ever argued those 3 names..
but if now u admit pippen is comparable to those 3 players to pippen ...well thank you proving our point lol
pippen is more comparable to those 3 great players then all those idiot players u claim are good lol...
you just contradict years of narrative that lebron had much better players then mj had with pippen while now u can only wins arguments using great players lebron had to compare pippen with....
u just cant makes stuff up like this , good job fallguy lol.
