GOAT NBA Discussion: Biggest fraud poster: fallguy. Super AIDS Containment thread
In addition to MJ, Dirk won with less help than Lebron on both sides of the ball as well:
09' Mo Williams..... 17/3/4 on 59 TS.... 17.2 PER... 2.3 bpm... 0.165 ws/48... 3.1 vorp... #3 team defense11' Jason Terry....... 16/2/4 on 55 TS.... 15.8 PER... 0.9 bpm... 0.100 ws/48... 1.9 vorp... #8 team defenseSo again, you guys fell for a steroid-using, choking, colluding, flopping, lo
again this has nothing to do what we are talking about and what u try to compare pippen with....
since now u cant present any stats that make sense, u try divert the discussion back on lebron ?
The stats of 93' Pippen or 11' Terry have everything to do with it because it shows that tons of guys won with less help than 09/10 Lebron, such as 11' Dirk, 93' Jordan, 94' Hakeem, 23' Jokic, 22' Curry, and many more.
Furthermore, the reason that Lebron needs ready-made stars is because star-caliber is required to maintain averages in a spot-up role.. Mo did this - he maintained his averages in a spot-up role, thereby being the caliber of spacing required to elevate LeDrive from 45 to 66 wins.. This is the historical record, but it's been misreported or misinterpreted by the media, so these truths are shocking to you.. Your knee jerk reaction is to reject it.
Mo didn't join a good team in 2008 - he joined a 45-win loser and his spacing unlocked the key to Lebron playing at MVP level with 66 wins..
Perhaps you were a grade-schooler at the time and weren't paying attention, but people were really excited when the Cavs got Mo because he was considered an excellent and really cool player..
Furthermore, the reason that Lebron needs ready-made stars is because star-caliber is required to maintain averages in a spot-up role.. Mo did this - he maintained his averages in a spot-up role, thereby being the caliber of spacing required to elevate LeDrive from 45 to 66 wins.. This is the historical record, but it's been misreported or misinterpreted by the media, so these truths are shocking to you.. Your knee jerk reaction is to reject it.
And you brought up OBPM, but after you were shown that MJ won with lower OBPM from Pippen than 09' Mo (and worse team defenses), you ran away.. Now you're complaining about another guy (Dirk) that won with less help than 09/10 Lebron on both sides of the ball... So you're just biased.. Direct answers and examples are being provided, yet you're pretending it's not relevant or valid..
I guess you can't respond to why Lebron lost the ECF with 18 on 38% from Mo, when many others beat top teams with this kind of scoring help and worse defenses.. People don't realize that Lebron's ball-dominant brand of ball has never been successful against top teams at carry-job scoring levels, so he never carried weak help over top teams, aka never beat a top 5 SRS teams with weak scoring and efficiency from a sidekick.. That's why he lost in the 09' and 10' Playoffs as an OKC-level favorite.. These historic failures forced the "decision" to guarantee reaching the Finals, where he did worse than anyone ever has (woat Finals record).. So his career is a complete sham.
FG logic
No wonder MJ won in 96 when he had a guy coming off the bench that was better than Wade and Bosh combined in 2014.
Kukoc - BPM 5.4, VORP 4.0
Wade and Bosh combined BPM 3.7, VORP 4.0
FG logic.
Now let me write 458 posts about it and say that the above makes sense without using any context.
LeBron's effort in 2014 to drag a team to the Finals that 2nd and 3rd best players combined weren't even as good as one guy MJ had coming off the bench is a miracle and one of the cases for LeBron being GOAT and a case for MJ being on the most loaded team in NBA history.
FG logic
No wonder MJ won in 96 when he had a guy coming off the bench that was better than Wade and Bosh combined in 2014.
Kukoc - BPM 5.4, VORP 4.0
Wade and Bosh combined BPM 3.7, VORP 4.0
FG logic.
Now let me write 458 posts about it and say that the above makes sense without using any context.
Perfect
Mo didn't join a good team in 2008 - he joined a 45-win loser and his spacing unlocked the key to Lebron playing at MVP level with 66 wins.. Perhaps you were a grade-schooler at the time and weren't paying attention, but people were really excited when the Cavs got Mo because he was considered an excellent and really cool player.. Furthermore, the reason that Lebron needs ready
Pippen didn’t join a good team either , with mj on it, 40 win …
The stats of 93' Pippen or 11' Terry have everything to do with it because it shows that tons of guys won with less help than 09/10 Lebron, such as 11' Dirk, 93' Jordan, 94' Hakeem, 23' Jokic, 22' Curry, and many more.Furthermore, the reason that Lebron needs ready-made stars is because star-caliber is required to maintain averages in a spot-up role.. Mo did this - he maintaine
Lebron just played bad in 2011.
To say , because Lebron played badly , makes bad players better then pippen because they won has no correlation at all ….
I mean 2009 mo played and lost with LeBron and u blame LeBron for the lost despite LeBron doing 38/8/8…(thats mj stats caliber right ?)
While mo 18/4/3 with .371 FG% (massive bricklayer) as a second option ?
lol
Replace mo by pippen 1993 for example and LeBron isn’t losing …
MJ won 50 with nothing in 88', while Lebron needed the East all-star center and 93' pippen to win 50 in 06', or 2 more all-stars to win 60 in 09' and 10' (Mo, Jamison).
So Lebron never had bad rosters that lacked all-stars or all-defensive players (Snow, Hughes, Varejao, Ben Wallace)..
Jamison scored 20k points in his career and outplayed Lebron in the 07' 1st Round - he was a far better scorer than Pippen, yet the Cavs had him at third option, while having better defenses than the 1st three-peat Bulls..
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Comparing sidekick help while trying to 3-peat
PLAYOFFS
14' Wade..... 18.5 PER.. 0.086 ws/48.. 1.6 obpm.. 28.6 pts per 100.. 56.0 ts.. 106 ortg
93' Pippen... 16.9 PER.. 0.083 ws/48.. 1.1 obpm.. 26.2 pts per 100.. 50.0 ts.. 102 ortg
FG logic
No wonder MJ won in 96 when he had a guy coming off the bench that was better than Wade and Bosh combined in 2014.
Kukoc - BPM 5.4, VORP 4.0
Wade and Bosh combined BPM 3.7, VORP 4.0
FG logic.
Now let me write 458 posts about it and say that the above makes sense without using any context.
All these advanced stats are based on a player's individual ORtg, which can only be compared to other players of the same role/usage level - this is from the CREATORS of all these advanced stats:
In a later chapter of Basketball on Paper, Oliver emphasized that Offensive Ratings shouldn't be viewed in a vacuum. Introducing a concept he called "Skill Curves", he acknowledged that a player's ORtg needed to be judged in conjunction with his Usage Rate, a measure of how big a role the player fills in his team's offense. The bigger the role, the more difficult it is to maintain a high ORtg; the smaller the role, the easier it is to be highly efficient. Because of this, Oliver stressed that a player's ORtg should primarily be compared to other players in a similar role/usage .
Accordingly, I compared two 2nd options of similar usage (Mo & Pippen, or Mo & Terry), while you're comparing low usage bench players to all-timers and guys that are often equal-scoring partners with Lebron..
So you're wrong.
Secondly, Kukoc, Kerr and Pippen lived off the system, which Lebron can't run because he isn't the elite off-ball 1st option required of ball movement systems and every dynasty.. So the Heat's inability to move the ball and subsequent bad chemistry is Lebron's fault, since his ball-dominant skillset prevents the ball movement systems that elevated Poole, Wiggins, Pippen, Manu, Parker and Klay..
Furthermore, we have the same issue with 2014 that we had with 2009 and 10 - aka Jordan WON with less than Lebron had in 2014 (stats above)), aka Pippen provided lower PER, WS/48, scoring rate and efficiency on the 93' run than Wade did on the 14' run - so MJ three-peated with less than what Lebron failed to 3-peat with (stats above).
MJ won 50 with nothing in 88', while Lebron needed the East all-star center and 93' pippen to win 50 in 06', or 2 more all-stars to win 60 in 09' and 10' (Mo, Jamison).So Lebron never had bad rosters that lacked all-stars or all-defensive players (Snow, Hughes, Varejao, Ben Wallace).. Jamison scored 20k points in his career and outplayed Lebron in the 07' 1st Round - he was a
Grant and pipen were on the team in 1988 ….
So yes like again , stop changing the goal post , pipen join a team that won 40 games the year before ….
And to make a narrative to prove it’s because of
Pippen .
Look at the 36m stats regular season , pippen is the 4th best player on the team .
And using 36m playoffs stats (like sometimes u love to use lol) pippen and grant are the 3rd best player on the team so it’s must be because of pippen the bulls did win 10 more games …..
So yes mj won 50 games (10 more) because he had pippen and Grant coming off the bench which he did not have the year before ….
See how easy it is to use stats like you love to do ….
Exactly like u just did in your last post with dwade playoffs stats vs pipen 1993 lol.
Using 100 position instead of typical stats to put dwade higher in pts lol….
The bad faith and hating is at an outstanding level in your case .
No wonder u got a containment thread ….
Lebron just played bad in 2011.
To say , because Lebron played badly , makes bad players better then pippen because they won has no correlation at all …
Pippen simply wasn't that good... You still haven't showed me where he dominated or played better than Shawn Marion, Iggy, or Larry Nance level - the winning spotlight simply inflated him to media accolade and all-time status.
The only argument you make is dumb media accolade, which career 2nd options can only get with winning spotlight - they never get All-NBA with losing teams...
Ultimately, Pippen was a lesser scorer than Jason Terry, Mo, Zydrunas, and Jamison because he lacked shooting and go-to moves, nor could he iso or fadeaway, or average 15 outside the system.
^^^ Jordan always won with that from Pippen (and worse team defenses).
Lebron lost with it because he's nowhere near Jordan.
Pippen averaged 15.7 on 34% in the 96' Finals, and 17.6 on 41% for the entire 96-98' Playoffs, which included the worst efficiency ever in 96' and 98'.
Again, Pippen averages 18 on 38% like Mo did ALL THE TIME, but Jordan won with this lesser scoring help and worse defenses... Ultimately, Pippen forces the 1st option to beat top 5 SRS teams with weak scoring and efficiency from a sidekick, which Lebron has never done.
^^^ 38 ppg of Harden-ball can't beat top teams..
Ball-dominance at high scoring levels can't beat top teams, so Lebron can't carry the scoring load vs top teams..
Specifically, he never carried weak help over top teams, i.e. he never beat a top 5 SRS team with weak scoring and efficiency from a sidekick... He also never successfully carried the scoring load on the championship level (never defeated max defensive attention).
Lebron's inability to carry the "star" category of scoring requires more star help and prevents GM's from getting defensive help.. So his inability to carry the scoring load prevents elite roster construction, while his skillset of turning everyone into spot-up shooter further hampers roster construction.
Lebron needed Mo's spacing to add 21 wins, so Pippen's bricklaying would lose big-time and Pippen told Rachel Nichols that he can't space the floor.. So you're just lying and ignoring facts..
Grant and pipen were on the team in 1988 ….So yes like again , stop changing the goal post , pipen join a team that won 40 games the year before ….And to make a narrative to prove it’s because ofPippen .Look at the 36m stats regular season , pippen is the 4th best player on the team .And using 36m playoffs stats (like sometimes u love to use lol) pippen and
Statistical production needed to win 50 games for 88' Jordan and 06' Lebron:
88' PIPPEN............... 12.9 PER... -0.6 BPM... 0.066 WS/48... 0.6 VORP
06' ZYDRUNAS'........ 21.9 PER.... 1.6 BPM... 0.184 WS/48... 2.1 VORP.... 2x All-Star
The all-star duo of Lebron and Zydrunas acquired 93' Pippen to make the 06' Playoffs and win 50 games:
05' HUGHES............. 21.6 PER.... 4.3 BPM... 0.157 WS/48... 3.7 VORP.... 1st team defense
93' PIPPEN............... 19.2 PER..., 4.0 BPM... 0.132 WS/48... 4.7 VORP.... 1st team defense
So you're fos
Pippen simply wasn't that good... You still haven't showed me where he dominated or played better than Shawn Marion, Iggy, or Larry Nance level - the winning spotlight simply inflated him to media accolade and all-time status. The only argument you make is dumb media accolade, which career 2nd options can only get with winning spotlight - they never get All-NBA with losing team
we all did , u just try to not see shrug.
u even had to change your stats years on pippen lol...
yes 1996 some games bla bla, everyone got bad games or playoffs but the point is pippen vastly did better then all those players over a long period of time u try to compare because they had 1 decent year.
mj won with a bad pippen ?
fine but pippen always win when mj did 38/8/8 while mo and all those bad players u bring did terribly bad when lebron made those stats and guess what ...they lost because of them , not lebron!!!
again , ill post it again because u deliberately ignore it i suppose and there is no nba trophee etc. just pure stats...
Regular season means nothing remember ? but I would gladly use them if u insist with pippen vs mo lol.Take the best 3 years of pippen and compare .Has a matter fact, takes both regular and postseason and leave out all the “fake” winning accolade and “fake” individual accomplishments due “solely” to mj and get back to me !
the bolded part, doesnt matter, pippen vastly did better overall then all those players u try to bring.
yeah man, pippen reach the play offs all the years he played so of course u will find some bad games.
but u cant even bring up 2 or 3 full years of those players u speak about lol...
here, find 5 years where they play better then 5 best year of pippen with the crap players u speak about .
thx
ps: who cares about harden....
Mo Williams Made his only all star game and had his best 3 point season when he played with LeBron.
Playing with LeBron clearly made him better. Gave him opportunities to succeed that no other teammate ever could.
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07' Mo..... 17.2 and 6.3 apg
08' Mo..... 17.3 and 6.1 apg
09' Mo..... 17.8 and 4.1 apg
Mo Williams Made his only all star game and had his best 3 point season when he played with LeBron.
Playing with LeBron clearly made him better. Gave him opportunities to succeed that no other teammate ever could.
Mo was already considered really good, which means that zero players grew from low producer to meaningful producer on Lebron's watch in 22 years.. Lebron can't develop young players because his skillset turns everyone into spot-up shooter, which prevents young player development, chemistry and elite roster construction.. Lebron literally lowered everyone's assists and increased their assisted buckets (assisted rate), aka he turned everyone into spot-up shooter.
You aren't realizing that it doesn't matter if a couple elite shooters like Mo or Kyrie maintained their stats alongside Lebron, since tons of other guys DID crater... Otoh, no one cratered alongside Jordan because Jordan wasn't a ball-dominator that turned guys into spot-up shooter - he could score off-screens at an all-time level and was the goat off-guard (SG).
Why would you ignore the statistical reality of Lebron cratering everyone's assists by turning them into spot-up shooter??.. This is statistical fact for 22 years with every notable teammate that he ever had (except Delonte - for some reason, his assists increased alongside Lebron - go figure, smh)... It matters that Lebron craters everyone's assists because it's the catalyst in every playoff loss.. i.e. every series loss of Lebron's playoff career is characterized by deficits in team assists, and the only exception is the 11' Finals - the only series that Lebron's team out-assisted the opponent and LOST is widely considered the biggest choke of all-time.
And again, Reaves is the only example of someone growing on Lebron's watch, but AD can take equal credit for that, and the numbers show that Reaves played much worse when Lebron was on the floor... Infact, AD's presence as a big assist target put the ball in Reaves' hands and was the only thing offsetting Lebron turning Reaves into spot-up shooter.
yes 1996 some games bla bla, everyone got bad games or playoffs but the point is pippen vastly did better then all those players over a long period of time u try to compare because they had 1 decent year.
It wasn't just a few bad games... Pippen averaged 17.6 on 41% for the ENTIRE 96-98' Playoffs, and this included worst-ever efficiency in 96' and 98'... So you're lying when you say that Pippen just had a few bad games - he was bad for his entire playoff career, except 1991.
Specifically, Pippen was bad for the entire 96-98' Playoffs, and also 88-90' Playoffs, or 99-03' Playoffs, and then the X-Man choke in 92', or the horrific 93' season (RS and PO)... So again, his only good playoffs was 1991...
Furthermore, Pippen's true shooting was below league-average for every year of his playoff career except the low burden years of 89', 90', 01-03', and then 1991 - so again, 91' was Pippen's only viable playoff run where he didn't choke or bricklay a house.
MJ could beat top teams with 38 ppg because he didn't dominate the ball, so he could maintain brand of ball at high scoring levels... Otoh, Lebron's ball-domination gets too much at high scoring levels, so he can't beat top teams with high scoring or carrying the scoring load..
That's why he never beat a top 5 SRS team with weak scoring and efficiency from sidekick, or successfully carried the scoring load on the championship level.
I didn't change anything - we're looking at the help needed to win 50 games for 88' Jordan and 06' Lebron:
88' PIPPEN............... 12.9 PER... -0.6 BPM... 0.066 WS/48... 0.6 VORP
06' ZYDRUNAS'........ 21.9 PER.... 1.6 BPM... 0.184 WS/48... 2.1 VORP.... 2x All-Star
The all-star duo of Lebron and Zydrunas acquired 93' Pippen to make the 06' Playoffs and win 50 games:
05' HUGHES............. 21.6 PER.... 4.3 BPM... 0.157 WS/48... 3.7 VORP.... 1st team defense
93' PIPPEN............... 19.2 PER..., 4.0 BPM... 0.132 WS/48... 4.7 VORP.... 1st team defense
^^ you have no response for this, so I will keep posting it... Jordan needed nothing to win 50 games, while Lebron needed the East all-star center and 93' Pippen acquisition JUST TO MAKE THE PLAYOFFS and win 50 games.
Harden matters because that's how Lebron plays - that's Lebron's skillset - dumb ball-domination... That's why he's the biggest loser ever on the championship level and can't beat top teams with 38 ppg.. it's dumb ball-domination.. bball 101... you need to learn the game son..
Lebron is a dumb ball-dominator that craters most teammates and mostly loses regardless of cast - never a great team regardless of who we put around him - a pure fraud.
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.07' Mo..... 17.2 and 6.3 apg08' Mo..... 17.3 and 6.1 apg09' Mo..... 17.8 and 4.1 apgMo was already considered really good, which means that zero players grew from low producer to meaningful producer on Lebron's watch in 22 years.. Lebron can't develop young players because his skillset turns everyone into spot-up shooter, which prevents young player development, chemistry and
What are u smoking ?
Mo played 3 of his best 5 years under LeBron .
Never did much as a whole before or after …
If he was great he could of played way better way sooner or way after Lebron …
And wouldn’t retired at 33 ffs
Ps: I’m surprised u don’t say Mo should of been on the 2008 Olympic team .
Being as good or better then pippen lol ….
It wasn't just a few bad games... Pippen averaged 17.6 on 41% for the ENTIRE 96-98' Playoffs, and this included worst-ever efficiency in 96' and 98'... So you're lying when you say that Pippen just had a few bad games - he was bad for his entire playoff career, except 1991.Specifically, Pippen was bad for the entire 96-98' Playoffs, and also 88-90' Playoffs, or 99-03' Playoffs,
Tltr but I guarantee you pippen played much better and lot more years then any player u came out with that played with Lebron lol…
Leaving out of course Kyrie dwade .
But I’m ready , prove me wrong and show me more then 1 year all your garbage player played better then pippen ….
Ho I got a response for this …..
Show me any player that played with Lebron that was better then pippen for a 4 year stretch minus dwade and Kyrie ….
And please don’t go all around cherry picking stats .
Pick any stats you like , I don’t care , but stick with the same stats for all players and all years u choose from !
Ps: probably couldn’t find even 3 years imo…
Tltr but I guarantee you pippen played much better and lot more years then any player u came out with that played with Lebron lol…Leaving out of course Kyrie dwade .But I’m ready , prove me wrong and show me more then 1 year all your garbage player played better then pippen ….Ho I got a response for this …..Show me any player that played with Lebron that
Why would I exclude Kyrie and Wade? That's your answer - Dwade, Kyrie, and AD - that's all of Lebron's 2nd options and they had better ppg, efficiency, PER, WS/48, OBPM, and ORTG.
And Jamison had better ppg, rpg, and true shooting for his entire career than Pippen.. And outside the system, every 2nd and 3rd option that Lebron had for 22 seasons was better than Pippen.
In addition to better 2nd options, Lebron had better 3rd, 4th and 5th options than Jordan had, while also having 6MOY like JR Smith.. He also played with far more good defenders, rebounders and passers.
What are u smoking ?
Mo played 3 of his best 5 years under LeBron .
Never did much as a whole before or after …
If he was great he could of played way better way sooner or way after Lebron …
And wouldn’t retired at 33 ffs
Ps: I’m surprised u don’t say Mo should of been on the 2008 Olympic team .
Being as good or better then pippen lol ….
You have it backwards - Mo improved Lebron... And he improved Lebron by more than Lebron improved him.
The stats and media accolade show that Mo's spacing opened up Lebron's game and improved Lebron massively from 08' to 09' - on both sides of the ball.. Mo's scoring punch allowed Lebron to have energy to become a 2-way player, while his spacing drastically improved Lebron's efficiency.
Lebron's numbers increased significantly alongside Mo's spacing, such as PER, BPM, VORP, WS/48 and efficiency... Meanwhile, Mo's PER, PPG and efficiency barely changed at all, while his assists cratered - his status as a borderline all-star also barely changed.
Ultimately, Mo was already good, so Lebron never developed any young players because no one grew from low producer to meaningful producer on his watch... Otoh, guys like BJ, Grant and Pippen grew from single-digit rookies into meaningful producers on Jordan's watch.. Jordan grew teammates because he wasn't a dumb ball-dominator that turns everyone into spot-up shooter like Lebron is.
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Through 2023:
^^^ no matter who we put around Lebron, he isn't capable of a great team, 3-peat or 70 wins regardless of cast, aka objectively inferior to MJ
lol at Mo being seen as "really good" before LeBron. That's like saying "Jordan Poole is really good because he averaged 18/6.
Anyway, look at the advanced stats. Mo terrible before LeBron. Good for his two full seasons with LeBron. Terrible afterwards.
Here's the players bball ref think are "like Mo". Look at all those studs.
