GOAT NBA Discussion: Biggest fraud poster: fallguy. Super AIDS Containment thread

Pretty funny for years Shaq keep bringing Kobe in the goat discussion but claim he would of won more with steph .

Probably aiming more at the ego part and less about the plays .

Not sure what it has to do with Ego.

He's basically saying Kobe = T-Mac, and slightly better than Vince, but way worse than Steph.

Pretty simple really.

Steph was much easier to lock up than Kobe - Kobe was more unstoppable and dominated better comp more consistently

And I think the idea is that ANYONE can win with top 10 players like Steph, such as a perennial loser like Wiggins, or Klay's "less than Hornacek" production.. But Shaq can't win 6 because he was swept with 4 all-stars in 1998, and won zero with Penny or Lebron, and 1 with Wade... So 6 with Curry is complete BS... The 3-peat with Kobe is the best Shaq could do.

So Lebron's skills produce a bad brand of ball that wins less, yet that makes him superior.

Got it Sherlock.. You're a real genius, lol smh.

But let's look at the reality... After the upset losses in 09' and 10', Lebron needed to collude JUST TO MAKE THE FINALS, and then he did worse than anyone ever has once he got there (worst Finals record ever, aka 22-33) - so his career is a complete sham..

Everyone else in history has a better win percentage or win frequency in the Finals than Lebron, so his ring count is a function of simply getting more chances via collusion... For example, the worst team in the league still wins at least 10 games, and that's what Lebron's teams are on the championship level.. He simply had enough chances via collusion so that his worst-ever win frequency could amass 4 chips (among a sea of losses).. Again, Lebron's career is a complete sham.

Lebron lost multiple times to the Nuggets, Warriors, Spurs and Celtics, so any team can dominate his weak brand of ball.. He was swept or gentleman swept many times with all-star teammates... How can he get beat badly with all-star teammates?.. It means he isn't that good.

So again, a player that isn't capable of winning like Jordan is inferior to Jordan.. And the term "winning" refers to winning as the best player in offensive basketball/modern era.. If Lebron was capable of being the ELITE off-ball player required of every dynasty (Curry, MJ, Duncan, Shaq), he would've done it already... But he obviously can't play like Curry or MJ and be an elite off-ball player - everyone knows that he can't play like them.. Ultimately, Lebron is inferior because he can't play the brand of ball that wins the most.

^^^ And they won on their own - they didn't need to be viewed as a 3-peat champion... By 1994, Pippen was a 3-peat champion, and the winning spotlight is how he got all his media accolade - he needed winning spotlight to make all-star and titles to get All-NBA... If he was barely scraping 20 ppg and losing on the Wizards with zero titles, then he would never make All-NBA.

All career 2nd options need winning teams to make All-NBA - they never made All-NBA with losing teams of 40 wins or less (3 times in 45 years since 1980).. Otoh, 1st options like Kyrie, Wade and AD can get media accolade without any playoff success, without good teams, and without winning spotlight.

So if they won nothing as 1st options, they're just like 94 Pippen. Pippen would've absolutely been a 1st option star if he didn't play on the same team as Jordan.

History shows that secondary producers like Klay, Pippen and Middleton can't be franchise players because teams led by them lack capacity to add talent, i.e. any decent scorer will surpass them as 1st option.. Accordingly, franchise players are reserved for dominant producers like Love, KAT, AD, or Bosh, or all-time floor general like Magic or Kidd.

That's like saying Jrue Holiday or Ron Artest could be "1st option stars".

So you're just pulling nonsense out of your ass and pretending that Pippen was on a level that he wasn't.

Skip to 5:21 mark:

Pippen cratered outside the triangle in Houston despite being healthy for the first time since his injury in 97', while his dunk frequency remained the same as previous years:

Pippen entered the league as a 7.9 ppg rookie and he never reached 15 ppg outside the triangle - he simply learned the triangle to barely scrape 20 ppg on bad efficiency.

And Pippen grew by leaps and bounds alongside MJ - few rookies have ever grown that fast - for example, we know that zero players grew into meaningful producers on Lebron's watch... So the idea that Jordan was holding Pippen down is false due to Pippen's historic growth alongside MJ, and also Pippen playing to capacity alongside MJ, aka Pippen had lower PPG + APG in 94' than his highs alongside MJ in 92', so Pippen was already playing at capacity alongside MJ, or pretty close.

We can demonstrate how weak Pippen was by looking at the 2009 season of Lebron's career.

Specifically, Lebron's drive-heavy attack only won 45 games in 2008 and needed all-star spacing to win 66 + MVP in 2009 (and 2013)... Essentially, Lebron's stiff-arm game can't win 60 + MVP without great spacing, so Pippen's bricklaying would be an inferior sidekick than Mo was.. And the Cavs already had better-ranked defense (3rd) than the 1st three-peat Bulls (#7).. Accordingly, Mo's elite spacing was the ideal sidekick for Lebron, while Pippen told Rachel Nichols that he can't provide the spacing that certain players need and actually compared himself to a bad Westbrick fit - skip to 2:01 mark:

So Pippen could never provide the spacing to open up Lebron's stiff-arm game and win 66 games.. Therefore, Mo was a better teammate for Lebron than Pippen would be... Now if Pippen was a dominant scorer, than his dominance could supersede the bad fit.. But Pippen only averaged 17.8 in 1991, which is the same as Mo in 2009, so the bad fit is EVERYTHING.. It's simply a fact that pippen's historic bricklaying and lack of "closing" ability is the worst fit possible for LeChoke's stiff-arm.
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Tltr but mo is a better helper then pippen , yet pippen 6 rings and mo 0 .

Btw didn’t u said regular season stats means nothing, it’s the playoffs stats that counts ?
So let’s check playoffs shall we ?

Oh $h!t , pippen 1991 -> 21 pgg , mo 2009 -> 16 ppg in playoffs ……oops !

What excuses now u will find …..

PLAYOFFS

09' MO WILL.... 23.5 pts per 100.... 53.0 ts... 16.3 ppg on 40.8 fg
96' PIPPEN....... 22.7 pts per 100.... 47.3 ts... 16.9 ppg on 39.0 fg

Pippen was also worse than Mo in the 98' Playoffs, yet he still won because Jordan could beat top teams when Pippen averaged 18 on 38%, while Lebron lost when Mo did that in the 09' ECF... And Lebron has never carried weak help over top teams (never beat a top 5 SRS team with weak scoring & efficiency from a sidekick).

It's easy to forget that Lebron choked in the 09' ECF by only playing good for 43 minutes and then disappearing in clutch-time (last 5 within 5), which lost 3 fourth quarter leads... It's impossible to win when the star player has 7 TO's in the 4th/OT of the pivotal Game 4 and turns into a 12 turnover per game player in clutch-time for the series, aka LeButterfingers in the clutch - he's been a turnover machine in clutch-time for his entire career and the 09' ECF was the worst case of it.

Lebron also had the goat defensive blunder by deciding to guard the shorter Courtney Lee instead of expending energy defending his own position (Hedo).. And of course, Lebron is too ball-dominant at carry-job volume to beat top teams, which is why he's never carried weak help over top teams (never beat a top 5 SRS team with weak scoring and efficiency from a sidekick).

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It's simple math and bball 101.. i.e. Since the vast majority of Lebron's field goals are drives, he jumps from 45 to 66 wins with Mo's elite spacing - Mo taught us that Lebron's game needs spacing to be maximized.

In contrast to Mo's spacing elevating LeDrive's game, Pippen's historic bricklaying and lane-clogging is the opposite of what Lebron needs and therefore would produce a horrific fit similar to the Westbrook disaster, or Hughes, Ingram and others.

In addition to Lebron needing a spacer, he needs more scoring help than the pathetic 18 on 38% that he would get from Pippen or Mo in the 09' ECF - Lebron has never beaten top teams with a Mo or Pippen level of scoring help because it requires him to average 35 or more, and he's too ball-dominant at that level to beat top teams.. This is why he needs the most scoring help ever, such as 1st options from other teams to play 2nd and 3rd option for him.

yeah having the second most final mvp while playing an inferior brand of ball is pretty incredible.

its like when Michael Schumacher winning with a trash benetton car.
by trying to trash lebron you actually elevate him....

Mo Williams.

Interesting. Your thoughts on Mo having his best two seasons when with LeBron? You seem to be happy when players have lower stats, but not complimentary when they play well?

He had BPM of 1.8 and 2.3 in his two Cavs seasons. Next highest was 0.3. (WSs of 6.7 & 9.8 with Bron. Next best 4.5).

Anyway, comparison to Pippen is laughable.

You've picked Mo's best season (by a considerable margin) and Pippen had BPM of 6.3 and WSs of 12.3 (vs 2.3 & 6.7 respectively).

Seriously stop embarrassing yourself. They aren't even in the same stratosphere.

ah, fallguy change the goal post again lol.
now he changes years cause it doesnt fit anymore.

so let me get this right.
u pick one years of mo (the only decent year u could find in his entire career) and u claim because he play has good has one of the worst season of 15 playoffs years of pippen, his better ?
lol..

btw, didnt you said many time against pippen like with horry, just because horry played 1 series higher then pippen peak, horry was better ?
but now its pippen that vastly have many higher peaks then mo, nah it doesnt count lol...

double standard, contradiction,lol.
god you are pathetic in your hating...

ps:guess fidstar beat me to it.

In the playoffs, Pippen averaged 16 or less in 88', 89, 90', 96', 98', 99', 00', 01', 02', and 03', so that's 10 of 16 seasons or the vast majority of Pippen's career.

Oh wait, potty pippen averaged 16 for his entire career!!! An entire career of Mo Williams' playoff scoring level... Ugh... Yuk.. How did this trash win 6 titles???Oh I know - he played with the goat - that's how.

^^^ 10 of 17 seasons, not 10 of 16... still the vast majority of Pippen's career

Anyone can cherry-pick stats:

07' Mo..... 17.2 and 6.3 apg
08' Mo..... 17.3 and 6.1 apg
09' Mo..... 17.8 and 4.1 apg

Mo's assists cratered alongside Lebron, while his assisted rate skyrocketed, so he was turned into a spot-up shooter and therefore made into a lesser player-type - this lowering of teammates to lesser roles is what lowers the team ceiling of Lebron's teams compared to MJ's - Mo would maintain his assist levels and superior player-type alongside MJ's skillset.

Essentially, if Lebron didn't lower Mo's assists and player-type to spot-up shooter, the Cavs ceiling would be higher.. Turning Mo into spot-up shooter hurt Mo's capacity in the playoffs, yet he still provided a scoring rate and efficiency that MJ won with in 96' and 98'.. This is similar to Bosh in 2014 - he lacked capacity to step up when Wade faltered because he'd been reduced to spot-up shooter.

Stats such as ppg, points per 100 possessions, efficiency, and OBPM show that Jordan won the 96' Playoffs with less offensive production from Pippen than Mo provided Lebron in the 09' Playoffs... Let that sink in.... And Jordan achieved the best regular season team in 91' with less offensive production from Pippen than Mo provided to Lebron in the 09' regular season... So Lebron lost with superior offensive help, while his teams had better defenses than the 1st three-peat Bulls, which includes the 07' team when Lebron wasn't all-defense yet..

The Cavs simply had better defensive casts, and better scoring help as well, such as 3rd scoring options (which Jordan never had)... Lebron played with 3 guys that were equal scorers to Pippen (Mo, Zydrunas, Hughes) and 1 guy that was a better scorer than Pippen (Jamison), while having better defensive casts as well.. All of this is historical record..

Lebron was likely going to win in 2011 because there was a 1-star organic chip up for grabs that year that Dirk grabbed... But the Cavs would've had the reputed defense and long-standing chemistry to beat the Mavs, which the Heat lacked.

Regular season means nothing remember ?
but I would gladly use them if u insist with pippen vs mo lol.
Take the best 3 years of pippen and compare .

Has a matter fact, takes both regular and postseason and leave out all the “fake” winning accolade and “fake” individual accomplishments due “solely” to mj and get back to me !

https://stathead.com/basketball/versus-finder.cgi?player_id2=pippesc01&player_id1=willima01&request=1&utm_id=willima01&utm_medium=sr_xsite&utm_source=bbr&utm_campaign=2023_01_wdgt_player_comparison

Stathead.com

Mo Williams vs. Scottie Pippen: Head-to-Head Stats Comparison | Stathead.com

What a bricklayer that mo guy huh….
What cherry picking stats will you TRY to find now …..

Mo had a OBPM of 1.3 in 09.

Pippen had 12 better than that (as high as 4.8).

You had to go to Pippen's 13th best season to get close to Mo (1.1).

And that's offense. Let's talk defense.

DBPM - Mo in -0.9 in 09. Every year in Pippen's career was higher than that other than a 4 game playoff run with Miami when he was 37.

Come on. Stop it.

You're missing the point that Jordan won with what Lebron couldn't:

OBPM Playoffs

09' Mo.............. 1.3
93' Pippen....... 1.1


OBPM Regular Season

09' Mo.............. 2.4
93' Pippen....... 2.6

^^^ Lebron lost with superior offensive help and better defenses than the 1st three-peat Bulls, which includes the 07' team when Lebron wasn't all-defense yet.

The lack of all-defense for Lebron on a #4 defense in 2007 confirms that the Cavs had better defensive casts, while also having better scoring help.. Jordan never had 3rd scoring options like Lebron, and Lebron played with 3 guys that were equal scorers to Pippen (Mo, Zydrunas, Hughes), and 1 guy that was a better scorer (Jamison).

Lebron was likely going to win in 2011 because there was a 1-star organic chip up for grabs that year that Dirk grabbed... But the Cavs would've had the reputed defense and long-standing chemistry to beat the Mavs, which the Heat lacked.

Individual defense doesn't matter when comparing defensive casts because the Cavs still had higher defensive ranking, so they made up for Mo's deficit with advantages at other positions, such as center, PF, PG, and bench.. The Bulls had 3 good defenders and then bad defenders at every other spot.

Austin Reeves is too long ago for you to remember I guess.

All the things you think you know are just made up biases to support your Jordan worship. Time to grow up. You're wasting your life on this.

Actually your a missing the point because winning with mj or not got nothing to do for mo to be a better player then pippen ….
Which u claim incessantly with nonsense stats or cherry picking years .

AD led the Lakers in scoring when Reaves joined the team for the 2020 championship run, and AD served as the co-scoring leader for his entire tenure as a Laker... Lebron fans forget that it isn't normal for 2 franchise players from 2 different teams to team-up, and 1 guy certainly can't claim all credit when they're actually equal scoring partners.

The reality is that without a big assist target like AD to put the ball in Reaves' hands, Lebron's ball-domination would've cratered Reaves to "corner dude" status just like Hughes, Ingram, Westbrook, Bosh, Jamison and Love before him.

So again, Lebron's skillset of high-scoring primary ballhandling, aka "ball-domination" craters everyone's assists and turns them into spot-up shooter, which prevents young player development, chemistry and elite roster construction... 22 seasons confirms this, aka 22 years of cratering everyone's assists and imposing spot-up roles, thus producing zero young player development.

You're just mad that you guys have been proven wrong on every point and fell for a steroid-using, choking, colluding, flopping, load-managing fool and the biggest loser in the history of the sport.

Btw, it's easy to forget that AD is the only player in history to turn a lottery team into champion in 1 season - he did this by leading the Lakers in scoring and turning the defense from worst to first, while carrying the Lakers to the Finals over Jokic and spotting the Lakers a 2-1 lead in the Finals... It's a goat season that AD gets no credit for, so Lebron's 2020 ring is easily the weakest because he was the clear-cut 2nd-leading scorer for the regular season and playoffs, while also being carried on defense... Again, you fell for a fraud that needed franchise players from other teams to play 2nd and 3rd option for him, and still mostly lost.

Just stop it with the Mo comparisons. It's just so dumb.