GOAT NBA Discussion: Biggest fraud poster: fallguy. Super AIDS Containment thread

Dunking is correlated to athleticism. But not by volume like you did.

And, once again, how do you know how athletics today's players are if you don't watch the game? Or are you lying?

Dunk frequency might have a better correlation than volume, and that's why I used Pippen's dunk frequency in 1999 to show that his athleticism hadn't declined from his 20 ppg seasons with the Bulls in 97' or 98' - only the team's offense changed, aka no triangle, and that's because there was no MJ..

It's easy to forget that every team in the league had tried to copy the 3-peat offense by 1999... But it turns out that the offense is actually a ridiculously top-heavy offense that requires the greatest scoring burdens ever.. This is because it requires a bailout artist to score quickly when the offense breaks down, which happens on 30-50% of possessions.. That's why it never won until the goat bailout artists got a hold of it (MJ, Kobe)..

Remember that Phil didn't really know anything - he said that MJ wouldn't be scoring champ in the triangle and the triangle would spread the wealth around, yet MJ was scoring champ for 7 of 7 seasons in the triangle with higher usage, scoring rate and FGA than pre-triangle (stats here).

Most fans forget that the Pistons were 22-1 in the 89' and 90' Playoffs against other teams, but only 8-5 against the Bulls.. So Jordan had already developed the Bulls to the 2nd or 3rd-best team in the league by the end of the 89' Playoffs despite Pippen being bad and Phil yet to arrive.. Phil inherited a team on the cusp of the Finals and the steepest trajectory in the league.

Regarding how I can separate the athletic players from the less athletic - it's by watching 10 seconds on youtube of a player like SGA going off the dribble.. Immediately I can tell that Penny was more athletic, stronger, and more explosive, albiet with a less sophisticated (carrying and traveling) handle (because it wasn't allowed back then).. I'm a former player myself and can do all the moves and used to be able to dunk off the dribble and off of many moves (similar to many D1 players), so it's easy for me to see SGA dribbling and finishing, and then accurately gauge his athleticism relative to someone like myself (far far superior), and then someone else like Penny or Kobe (a level or 2 below them)... So it's a player's insight.

lol
The mind gymnastics you tell yourself to prove mo and Larry Hughes are great/good players and yet failed every time they were in a position to be great support never happened …

Well getting boring to discuss with nonsense narrative.
Nice talking to you .

Mo's spacing added 21 wins for LeDrive, so he was the perfect fit for success (66 wins)... Otoh, Pippen's bricklaying and lane-clogging would've been a bad fit for LeDrive just like it was for Hakeem in 1999 when Pippen was asked to space the floor - it was a disaster.

So Mo succeeded in the regular season and then provided 18 on 38% in the playoffs, which was enough for Jordan to win with all the time..... but not enough for Lebron.

You too

How many times u told us regular season means nothing .
And now u changes your stance again , double standard fallguy, to fit your guy you like , because in playoffs is not .
And again, you keep telling lies on how mo, Russell or w.e player u like aren’t brick layers worst then pippen ….

Name which years LeBron team (outside Miami’s ) was better then mj championship team when mj won with bad pippen to believe or make that connection about mo or Larry being equivalent to pippen ?

It doesn’t mean anything about how Good or bad they are .
Actually it just prove bad pipen is vastly better because even when his bad , they still win ….while mo, Larry , etc they lose everytime and never won anything …

I don't even know how to respond to this gibberish.

Anyway, apparently Ratliff is more athletic than MJ, because, you know, dunked more.

Ratliff was helluva athlete - that's ALL he had.

But just like anything else, apples to apples comparisons matter - can't compare dunk stats of bigs to guards, although MJ was the only guard that I've seen with elite big man dunk totals (152 dunks in 88' and even more in 87')

Phil was no punk - he was a player's coach that players respected, but his x's and o's were bad because the pure triangle was a little-known offense that no one ever won with - it broke down about 20-50% of the time and needed a quick bailout, thus making it the most top-heavy offense ever and requiring the greatest scoring ability - the goat scoring and clutch burdens required of the triangle are why it never won until the goat scorers got a hold of it (MJ, Kobe).

Again, Phil simply got lucky with his non-descript offense.. He said that MJ wouldn't be scoring champ in the triangle and the triangle would spread the wealth around, yet MJ was scoring champ for 7 of 7 seasons in the triangle - this included higher usage, scoring rate and FGA than pre-triangle (stats here).

Most fans forget that the Pistons were 22-1 in the 89' and 90' Playoffs against other teams, but only 8-5 against the Bulls.. So Jordan had already developed the Bulls to the 2nd or 3rd-best team in the league by the end of the 89' Playoffs despite Pippen being bad and Phil yet to arrive.. Phil inherited a team on the cusp of the Finals and the steepest trajectory in the league.

See, there you go again...

Why can't I include Miami?.. By not allowing it, are you admitting that those 4 years were underachievement and therefore failure?.. i.e. "not 6, not 7" turned into the shakiest 2/4 ever, aka the goat choke and record loss book-ended a win over babies and teammate bailout... lol

Lebron's casts from 2006 to 2010 were equivalent or better than Jordan's title casts.

Specifically, they had better scoring and defensive help than the 1st three-peat Bulls, and FAR better scoring help than the 2nd three-peat Bulls.. They also had better rebounding and rim protection than the 1st three-peat Bulls, and better rim protection than the 2nd three-peat Bulls.

Lebron's skillset and style of play lowers everyone's assists, and anytime this resulted in less team assists than the opponent in a playoff series, he lost - i.e. every series loss of Lebron's playoff career shows deficits in team assists.

To summarize - Lebron's team MUST out-assist the opponent to win a playoff series, and he failed to do this against the Magic and virtually every series loss of his playoff career.. Team assists is simply the key to Lebron winning a playoff series because it's the primary weakness of his game - he must overcome it each time to win.

^^^ This ties into Lebron having insufficient brand of ball at carry-job volume to beat top teams - i.e. the more he scores and has the ball, the more likely his team will have an assist deficit (series loss)... Btw, It's a big deal to go from disadvantage to upperhand - a totally different brand of ball is often required.- so a 1 or 2 assist deficit can be a big deal and represent an entirely different brand of ball.

Pippen was athletic. I'll give you that.

Remember when Jordan got beaten by one of the most basic cross overs ever by AI.

Imagine how embarrassed he'd be if he was defending Curry or Irving.

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How many all-star game for these guys w/out winning spotlight, aka losing on Wizards?

Regular Season

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hornaje01.html

Basketball-Reference.com

Jeff Hornacek Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Draft Status and more | Basketball-Reference.com

'..... 17.7 PER.. 2.9 bpm.. 0.153 ws/48.. 42.1 vorp.. 15/3/5 on 58.2 ts

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/thompkl01.html

Basketball-Reference.com

Klay Thompson Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Draft Status and more | Basketball-Reference.com

............... 16.4 PER.. 0.7 bpm.. 0.110 ws/48.. 14.4 vorp.. 19/3/2 on 57.5 ts


Playoffs

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hornaje01.html

Basketball-Reference.com

Jeff Hornacek Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Draft Status and more | Basketball-Reference.com

'..... 16.5 PER.. 3.1 bpm.. 0.145 ws/48.. 14.1 vorp.. 15/4/4 on 57.5 ts

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/thompkl01.html

Basketball-Reference.com

Klay Thompson Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Draft Status and more | Basketball-Reference.com

............... 14.4 PER.. 0.7 bpm.. 0.091 ws/48.... 3.1 vorp.. 19/3/2 on 56.0 ts

^^^ All dunks... 100% dunks... A dunker

I rest my case.

Pippen was essentially Aaron Gordon (except without the playoff clutch).. However, unprecedented winning spotlight inflated him to all-time status and media accolade. . Infact, outside of the system that he grew up in, Pippen was a much worse scorer than Gordon.

If Pippen didn't want to be overlooked, he should've not been carried in every playoff series of his career, and his 17-year career shouldn't be barren of big shots or dominating.. Even when he had the team to himself in 1994, it was Kukoc that led the Bulls in playoff BPM and was the "closer" that Phil favored & trusted - Kukoc made 5 game-winners that season.. Pippen was simply coddled in a no-pressure apprentice role as he learned the triangle, while MJ took all the smoke and big shots - he learned to scrape 20 automatic system points as a peak capability, and then he was worse than Jeff Green upon leaving the system.

And btw, since today's media lauds Pippen and ranks him in the top 30, these guys are saying that IN THE 90's no one thought pippen was good.. They're remembering all the disrespect Pippen got back then - it was common knowledge in the 90's that the Bulls were a 1-man team... Isiah and Magic said the Bulls were a 1-man team during the 93' Finals.. NO ONE was saying pippen was anything back then.. Reggie Miller said the Bulls were a 1-man team in 1991... Show me where players were saying Pippen was underrated... Pippen averaged 16.6 on 39% against Jalen's Pacers in the 98' ECF and had the big choke in game 4 that caused the 7-game series - so these guys are remembering Pippen with rose-colored glasses and revising history.. NO ONE said this in the 90's, except the occasional coach from the 92' Dream Team that was tasked with saying something nice about everyone (political speak for an international audience).

And most fans didn't know that All-NBA awards existed in the 90's - they were ceremonial awards voted on by a few media members and Jordan/Pippen were voted like a joint ticket... 2nd options like Pippen and Klay needed 67 wins and tremendous winning spotlight to make All-NBA, while 1st options like MJ or Curry make it with weak teams.. It's obvious that Klay's "less than Hornacek" production rates (previous post) or Pippen's weak scoring ability wouldn't get media accolade while losing for the Wizards.. They would be like Horace Grant's brother (Harvey), who had a good career for the Wizards, but no one ever heard of him because he wasn't 3-peating alongside the GOAT.

There were just players saying Pippen was a GOAT.

The same players that you put so much stock in with their quotes when you like what they have to say.

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The consensus on Pippen by his peers:

Colin Cowherd on Pippen - skip to 5:21 mark:

Isiah saying the Bulls are a 1-man team during the 93' Finals:

When you're talking about this Bulls' team, you're really only talking about Michael Jordan.. So you can speculate about what would happen if you took me off the Pistons and him off the Bulls - yeah, our casts are better - but the fact is, he isn't being taken off the team - he's still there and no one has figured out how to beat this guy"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6og_pOV...

Magic saying the Bulls are a 1-man team during 1993 Finals:

"Bulls rely on Michael too much, so if you take me away and you take Michael away from the Bulls, then our team would demolish his team."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6og_pOV...

Shaq and Reggie Miller saying the Bulls were a 1-man team:

No one said that in the 90's and people would have your head checked if you said that back then... You guys think you can make up whatever you want after the fact.

It's funny because Pippen was horrible against Jalen Rose in the 98' ECF - he nearly caused loss, yet Jalen is lying 30 years later because he's part of the media and they make up narratives to fill segments... But it was common knowledge that the Bulls were a 1-man team and Pippen wasn't a threat.. ever..

He was never a threat or a concern of the other team... a coddled dunker - that's what your clip showed - dunks... Otherwise, Pippen had the worst efficiency/lane-clogging EVER - this is statistical fact.. Pippen had worst-ever shooting splits on 3 title runs (93', 96', 98').

If Pippen didn't want to be overlooked, he should've not been carried in every playoff series of his career, and his 17-year career shouldn't be barren of big shots or dominating... Fortunately, he was carried to 6 titles with the biggest margins ever between 1st and 2nd option, and this unprecedented winning spotlight inflated him to all-time status and media accolade.

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^^^ 35-year old MJ locking up Iverson.... Imagine what 80's Jordan would do

They don't allow the Iverson's crossover anymore because it stretched the rules too much, even for today's game, yet Jordan still stopped it (above)...

Don't you find it interesting that it's the only highlight of Iverson taking Jordan?.. That's because all the other highlights show Jordan stopping Iverson's crossover (above).

Jordan is the goat perimeter defender that locked down Tim Hardaway's crossover (go ahead and youtube that) and was the primary defender on Isiah, Payton, Rod Strickland and other quick point guards.

Never change FG. Never change.

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Pippen couldn't handle quick wings with good handle like Hill or Kobe:

Here's Kobe shaking his head after breaking Pippen BADLY in 99' - Pippen is joke to him:

But just a few months earlier, Jordan had no problem stuffing Kobe's crossover in 98' ASG:

Here's another one - Pippen can't handle Grant off-the-dribble - he can't stay in front:

But MJ can - he stays in front of Grant every step of the way and forces wild shot:

The reason MJ was so much better defending quick ballhandlers like Hill, Kobe or Westbrook is because he was a 2-guard, and was the frequently the primary, all-game defender on quick point guards.

For example, MJ was matched up against Gary Payton from the TIP-OFF in Game 3 and Game 5 of the NBA Finals and was the main defender throughout the game..

MJ was also the main defender and matched up from the tip-off against Isiah Thomas and Rod Strickland.. And we all know he was matched up from tip-off against Magic, when he guarded Magic for14 of 20 quarters (70%) in the 1991 Finals.

MJ's far greater experience playing quick ballhandling guards and his superior athleticism made him a better perimeter defender than Pippen..

You were proven wrong on Iverson... Case closed.. You were wrong - Jordan is the goat perimeter defender that shut down the goat crossovers of Iverson (above) and Tim Hardaway (below):

And this is old Jordan

Unlike your hero, mine was the real deal

They banned the Iverson crossover in the late 90's while Iverson was still a young player, and I think it would still be called a carry today, even though today's game allows far more carrying and traveling on other moves and overall..

Regardless, Jordan shut down the handle of Iverson, Tim Hardaway and Isiah, so your original point was wrong.. I would love to see Jordan shut down Shai without even trying - he's slow compared to Iverson, and he would have zero energy from having to defend Jordan... Today's player is also extremely SOFT and would simply quit against Jordan.. They would rather enjoy their riches than compete.. As soon as it gets a little tough and approaches the seriousness of the 90's, today's player would quit and say "it's just basketball!!".. Then they would log onto TikTok

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Majerle and Starks on MJ:

"If he didn't want you to score, you didn't score"

^^^^ Zero opposing SF's ever said anything like that about Pippen.. Only members of the media praise his defense because they could never praise his offense, aka "you really took over down the stretch there" was never said about Pippen.

Players view Pippen as a "bus rider", according to Isiah and Barkley - he was never in the club of dominant players or franchise leaders... Pippen had 1 playoff run (1991) where he didn't wet the bed/choke in a series, or shoot below league average true shooting.. The only exceptions to him shooting below average are years when he had no burden (01-03' and 89', 90')..

People pretend that it's easy to win with a career 16 ppg bricklayer, yet Lebron couldn't win more than 45-50 games when he had this type of help and better team defenses from 06-08'.. The reality is that only the goat won a bunch of chips with a 2nd option and never had a 1dt option as sidekick like everyone else in history did.

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Modern players that won multiple rings with career 2nd options:

- JORDAN (6)

One-offs include 94' Hakeem, 05' Duncan, 11' Dirk, 15' Curry, 21' Giannis, and 23' Jokic

Modern players that won multiple rings with true 2nd options (low statistical peak and no FMVP):

- Jordan (6)
- Kobe (2)

One-offs include 94' Hakeem and 11' Dirk

CONCLUSION - only MJ, Kobe, Dirk and Hakeem won without scoring help

You take Kenny smith word for pippen ?
Fine.
Hopefully u wont double standard as usual and not believe Kenny smith when he said the bulls with mj couldn’t beat them in 94 and 95 even if mj wouldn’t retire right ?

You believe Colin , the guy that believe LeBron was the goat smh ….
And a media sell out like all other journalist right ?

Wilkins here said pippen was a super players ….ooops

Here Wilkins said no one could guard him even great defender like pippen and rodman one on one .
They all needed help….

Just stop with pippen bashing and mo, Larry, love excellence ….
You just discredit yourself about your entire basketball narrative.