GOAT NBA Discussion: Biggest fraud poster: fallguy. Super AIDS Containment thread
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It's a pattern:
no AD - 37 wins - lottery
w/ AD - 55 wins - title
no Mo - 45 wins - 2nd Rd
w/ Mo - 66 wins - title favorite
* Boobie Gibson dominated the closeout Game 6 to carry Lebron to the 07' Finals
* Wade led the Heat in PPG an APG when Lebron finally got past his bully (11' Celtics).
* Bosh carried the Bulls with 23 on 60% against the 2011 Bulls, i.e. the 3% of possessions that Lebron guarded Rose was enough to wear Lebron out for the offensive end (25 on 45%).
* Ray Allen saves Lebron's legacy in 2013 after Lebron's 23 on 43% was insufficient through 6 games - the Heat didn't win with Lebron on the floor in this series (0 plus-minus and negative net rating), and Lebron's 16 on 39% for the first 3 games caused a 2-1 deficit that required Allen's save
* Kyrie becomes the first sidekick to outplay the sitting league MVP, thus providing the most help that anyone ever had
* AD dominated the "real" Finals against Jokic in the 20' WCF and led the NBA in playoff scoring (and defense).. After leading the Lakers all year on both ends, he spotted the Lakers a 2-0 lead in the Finals and became the 1st player ever to lift a lottery team to title in 1 year.
* Luka arrives to take the blame for Lebron's massive negative plus/minus reducing the Lakers' chances every time he's on the floor
Ridiculous post that been debunked many times .
Example , 20ppg more (LeBron) from his second option is a bigger scoring load then 15 ppg (mj) …
Anyway, getting boring to repeat ad nauseam the same thing .
Bye.
Can’t fix delusional with facts , it takes a pill ….
MJ averaged 25 more than Pippen with GOAT clutch to beat a better team than the 09' Magic (89' Cavs) in a historic and epic upset.
MJ also averaged 21 more than Pippen to win the 93' Finals..
And many more... You've been proven wrong so many times and now you aren't reading the posts so you can pretend I didn't already answer.
And how can Lebron expect to beat top teams by dominating the ball for 38 ppg?.. How can that garbage brand of ball at high scoring levels beat top teams?.. It never has - Lebron never carried weak help over top teams (never beat a top 5 SRS team with weak scoring and efficiency from a sidekick) because he lacks sufficient brand at high scoring levels.. This is why he never carried the scoring load vs top teams, while MJ did as a standard.
And again, the inability to carry the "star" category of scoring requires more star help, thus preventing GM's from getting defensive help.. So Lebron's inability to carry the scoring load prevents elite roster construction, while his skillset of turning everyone into spot-up shooter hurts young player development, thus further hampering roster construction.. So Lebron is dimensions below Jordan.
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In addition to Ayton, Wade, Bosh, Kyrie, Love, AD and Luka, numerous other teammates of Lebron were better than MJ's 1st all-star in 1990:
05' HUGHES.................. 21.6 PER... 0.157 WS/48... 3.7 VORP... 4.3 BPM... 22/6/5.... 1st Team All-D
90' PIPPEN.................... 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/6/5
09' MO WILLIAMS........ 17.2 PER... 0.165 WS/48... 3.1 VORP... 2.3 BPM... 17/3/4
90' PIPPEN.................... 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/7/5
09' JAMISON................. 20.6 PER... 0.126 WS/48... 2.8 VORP... 1.6 BPM... 22/9/2
90' PIPPEN.................... 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/7/5
06' ZYDRUNAS'.............. 21.9 PER... 0.184 WS/48... 2.1 VORP... 1.6 BPM... 16/8/1 (2 bpg)
90' PIPPEN..................... 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/7/5
The all-star duo of Lebron and Zydrunas acquired 93' Pippen to make the 06' Playoffs and win 50 games:
05' HUGHES................... 21.6 PER.... 4.3 BPM... 0.157 WS/48... 3.7 VORP.... 1st team defense
93' PIPPEN..................... 19.2 PER..., 4.0 BPM... 0.132 WS/48... 4.7 VORP.... 1st team defense
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DeAndre Ayton averaged 18/12 at 21 years old and was a prodigal #1 pick... Accordingly, since guys like Curry, MJ or Duncan developed young players that were nowhere near Ayton's projection, such as Klay, Poole, Pippen, Grant and BJ, they would easily win with Ayton and elevate him.
And Ayton is 4th option on these Lakers, which represents the most stacked team in the league, BY FAR - they would easily be the preseason favorite if not for LeOld's huge negative plus/minus hindering the team's ceiling.
Ultimately, Lebron received 11 players that were already better than Jordan's 1st all-star in 1990, but the "bron-ball" skillset of turning everyone into spot-up shooter couldn't develop any of them (shown in the previous post).. Luka-ball is similar and couldn't develop guys like Brunson or Porzingas either.. The inferior chemistry of Lebron's skillset is why he underachieved at every stop by going 2/4, 1/4, and 1/6, or winning 60 games once in 15 seasons with Wade, Bosh, Kyrie, Love, AD and Luka.
Secondly, regarding 1980, we don't only have one of the larger increases of ORTG to consider...
Over a 6 year period in the late 70s / early 80s the offensive game was improving. Mainly because it was becoming more of a professional sport. In that period the average increase was 1.4pp 100 possessions each season over that 6 year span. The year the 3 pointer was introduced it increased by 1.5pp 100 possessions (within that 6 year span).
It's not unreasonable conclusion that the introduction of the 3 point shot had nothing to do with the increase at the time.
DeAndre Ayton averaged 18/12 at 21 years old and was a prodigal #1 pick... Accordingly, since guys like Curry, MJ or Duncan developed young players that were nowhere near Ayton's projection, such as Klay, Poole, Pippen, Grant and BJ, they would easily win with Ayton and elevate him.And Ayton is 4th option on these Lakers, which represents the most stacked team in the league, BY
The fact you think Ayton is good does seem to imply you don't watch basketball.
I thought you could tell if someone was good by watching them for 30 seconds.
Do you think he's good?
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Bill Cartwright in first 7 seasons - 18/8
Ayton - 16/10
That's probably a reasonable comparison.
Bill Cartwright in first 7 seasons - 18/8
Ayton - 16/10
That's probably a reasonable comparison.
Cartwright's early-mid career was good but he never had the prodigal talent, projection, or ceiling of Ayton.. Ayton was the next great big man and he was already better than Cartwright ever was before he played a single pro game.
Ayton was more talented than guys that Curry or MJ developed like Poole, Klay, Pippen, Grant and BJ, so it's hard to reason that they wouldn't easily win with Ayton's superior talent.. The only reason Luka would fail with Ayton is if Luka isn't really all that and/or LeNegative drags down the team's differential again.
Over a 6 year period in the late 70s / early 80s the offensive game was improving. Mainly because it was becoming more of a professional sport. In that period the average increase was 1.4pp 100 possessions each season over that 6 year span. The year the 3 pointer was introduced it increased by 1.5pp 100 possessions (within that 6 year span).It's not unreasonable conclusion that
Ok fine, but ORTG wasn't the original point... The point was that I can put Russell at #2 despite him not fulfilling my normal scoring requirements because MVP's before the inception of the 3-point line didn't have to be dominant offensive players - they could be mostly defenders.. So the only players that must be dominant offensive players are the players from the era that required dominant offense to be MVP-caliber - this would be courts with a 3-point line, which produced 45 of 45 MVP's as dominant offensive players.
Essentially, I have the best player since the inception of the 3-point line as #1, and the best player from the "no threes" era as #2, and he happens to be a defender, because the MVP's before the 3-point line could be defenders (teams leveraged the lack of spacing to make it a defensive game). .. Hope that helps.
I can't believe it took 8 years of 3 point shooting before teams averaged taking more than 1 3 pointer a quarter.
Really shows how bad basketball was back then.
Bringing the ball up and jacking a three is nothing and not a demonstration of basketball ability - you could even do it... Any era or level can employ the strategy of shooting as many threes as possible, including kindergarteners.
The fact that you think 3-point jacking is a good demonstration of offensive ability shows the lack of understanding that today's fans have about bball 101... The isue is that they only started watching the game when a guy that looked like their paperboy started winning MVP's by jacking threes, so the game turned into a numbers-game that they could be interested in and respect.. Prior to this, they had no idea that basketball was a cool sport and didn't know anything about it - they still don't because it's just the threes and numbers that brought them into the sport in the first place.. They otherwise still don't know anything about it...
For example, they think that any bum that jacks threes at 35% is good, but this ability is pedestrian for anyone that practices a little bit, even kindergartners.. Accordingly, today's 3-point robots are bad compared to the pure scoring and shot-making ability of prior eras... Today's "downhill", drive-and-kick robots need their hands-off beginner format and neat spacing to do anything.. When they get in less spaced and physical formats during international competitions, they underperform so drastically that our 12 All-NBA players nearly lose to 1-man teams.
Cartwright's early-mid career was good but he never had the prodigal talent, projection, or ceiling of Ayton.. Ayton was the next great big man and he was already better than Cartwright ever was before he played a single pro game.
You're right. The comparison isn't fair. Cartwright played defense.
You obviously realise that Ayton is terrible. He's been a big disappointment after a promising start. So much so that he got traded away by Phx who needed a big man, then got paid out by Portland and then signed for $8M a year making him the 175th highest paid player in the league. Once again, if you watch him play you'd see that.
That's not to say he can't turn it around, but it also means that later this year when you say "LeBrOn RuInEd AyToN!" you would be wrong.
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Recent thread cliffs
Great shooting isn't required in today's game to be a top scorer because the paint is wide open on every play, so bad jumpers like Westbrick, LeBrick or Giannis can still achieve all-time stats... Otoh, great mid-range or 3-point shooting was required to shoot over packed paints and be a good scorer in previous eras..
Unspaced courts also produced the expectation of contested shots, so each player developed their own individually-unique way of scoring on defenders like McAdoo, Kareem, Magic, Bird or MJ.. The contrasting styles in previous eras are the opposite of today's PNR robots and 3-point spammers....
The in-traffic ability and touch of prior eras fits with international formats that are less spaced and more physical - it explains why the original Dream Teams won by so much, while today's PNR robots struggle in more nuanced formats.
Ok Nice conclusion.
About the logic with it ?
Since this is st the core of all your basketball narrative why dirk and h Akeem aren’t top 10 ?
Why you got Russel at number 2 .
I mean if its that important using that fascist to diss Lebron not being top 10 ?
And perhaps you can show a higher caliber like Montrealcorp did above in bold, and admit that you like my rational for exempting Russell from the scoring requirements of my top 10 (i.e. defenders could be the best players in 2-pointer hoops).
Btw, the scoring requirements for my top 10 are being able to carry the scoring load (since carrying the star category of scoring allows GM's to get defensive help, aka elite roster construction), and being a great shooter or big, aka off-ball player (as required for the ball movement systems of every dynasty or dominant title run, aka great teams).
I think your rational about carrying scoring load are dumb and only used to discredit LeBron. You go out of your way to find anything that's different between Jordan and LeBron and say "That's the reason". You don't talk about rebounds or assists because LeBron is better at them, but if it had been the other way around, it's all you'd talk about.
You have a conclusion, and you work back from there.
Imagine is Kaminga played with LeBron. He'd be an amazing player that is being held back by LeBron. But, no mention from FG because he plays with Steph.
I think your rational about carrying scoring load are dumb and only used to discredit LeBron. You go out of your way to find anything that's different between Jordan and LeBron and say "That's the reason". You don't talk about rebounds or assists because LeBron is better at them, but if it had been the other way around, it's all you'd talk about.You have a conclusion, and you w
Exactly
I think your rational about carrying scoring load are dumb and only used to discredit LeBron. You go out of your way to find anything that's different between Jordan and LeBron and say "That's the reason". You don't talk about rebounds or assists because LeBron is better at them, but if it had been the other way around, it's all you'd talk about.You have a conclusion, and you w
You're making stuff up because it's bball 101 that scoring is the only category that directly affects/changes the scoreboard... So Jordan's advantage has a more direct impact on the game than the areas that you claim Lebron is superior... Teams can win with less rebounds or assists, but they can't win with less scoring.
I would also argue that MJ's scoring advantage is much greater than the advantage you claim Lebron has on the glass or passing the basketball.. And the scoring burden affects rpg and apg, yet MJ was still close in these areas, or even ahead (offensive rebounds).
But the most important point is that scoring is the "star" category, so it's the category most closely correlated with all-stars, All-NBA, or whatever fans consider a "star" to be... Accordingly, it's important to be capable of carrying the "star" category, since this requires less star help and allows GM's to find defensive help or the right role players - it allows elite roster construction, which Lebron fans complained about for 22 years.. But it's Lebron's own fault for needing so much star help (scoring help), thereby preventing GM's from getting the right defensive help or role players..
So again, if Lebron could successfully carry low-scorers like Pau, Klay, Pippen or Murray, then maybe I would have him up there with Kobe, Curry, MJ or Jokic (and therefore in my top 10)... Unfortunately, Lebron's failures to carry the scoring load for various low scorers such as Jamison (a better scorer than Pippen) caused him to need equal-scoring partners and fellow franchise players like Wade, AD and others...
So the question is WHY can't Lebron carry the scoring load against top teams, and therefore win with weaker scorers like Jamison, Pippen, Ingram, Westbrook, etc???... It's because he's too ball-dominant at 38 ppg - who could beat a TOP TEAM with 38 ppg of "downhill" (beginner-ball)?.. You tell me... It's against bball 101.
Furthermore, in addition to ppg, clutch ppg, and carrying the scoring load, a 1st option's STYLE of scoring must be considered, since it dictates brand of ball, fits and chemistry, aka team ceiling.. For example, if a ball-dominant skillset is the most productive/talented player on the team, then the team is forced to put the ball in their hands to run Luka-ball or Bron-ball - this eliminates the possibility of having elite ball movement systems required by dynasties, since these systems require goat OFF-ball players like my top 10 (MJ, Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Kobe, Bird, Duncan, Shaq, Curry, Jokic).
Finally, Lebron isn't actually better at rebounding because MJ was a better offensive rebounder, which affects team differentials more than a position-based stat like defensive rebounds.. Lebron's edge in DREB's is meaningless because it's position based, while MJ's advantage in OREBS is a surprise and therefore an advantage over most teams that don't have backcourt players getting so many extra possessions.. Secondly, Lebron isn't a better passer, since he's just a downhill ball-dominator that achieves his APG via weaker/losing brand of ball, all-time #1 turnovers, and low scoring burden compared to MJ - he doesn't have to carry the scoring load and has fellow franchise players/juggernauts to pass to, while his style uses teammates as kickout and bailout options instead of BEING the bailout guy himself.. He simply isn't a "closer", so he needs all-time closers and finishers like Wade, Kyrie, AD, and Luka.
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This is why the 2015 Warriors came out of nowhere and had +2800 preseason odds:
Regular Seasonhttps://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hornaje01.html..... 17.7 PER.. 2.9 bpm.. 0.153 ws/48.. 42.1 vorp.. 15/3/5 on 58.2 tsBasketball-Reference.comJeff Hornacek Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Draft Status and more | Basketball-Reference.comhttps://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/thompkl01.html............... 16.4 PER.. 0.7 bpm.. 0.110 ws/48.. 14.4 vorp.. 19/3/2 on 57.5 tsBasketball-Reference.comKlay Thompson Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Draft Status and more | Basketball-Reference.com
Playoffshttps://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hornaje01.html..... 16.5 PER.. 3.1 bpm.. 0.145 ws/48.. 14.1 vorp.. 15/4/4 on 57.5 tsBasketball-Reference.comJeff Hornacek Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Draft Status and more | Basketball-Reference.comhttps://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/thompkl01.html............... 14.4 PER.. 0.7 bpm.. 0.091 ws/48.... 3.1 vorp.. 19/3/2 on 56.0 tsBasketball-Reference.comKlay Thompson Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Draft Status and more | Basketball-Reference.com
16' Klay was outproduced by 09' Mo:
09' MO......... 2.3 BPM... 0.165 WS.48... 3.1 VORP... 17.2 PER
16' KLAY....... 1.8 BPM... 0.144 WS/48... 2.5 VORP... 18.6 PER
^^^ Dwight beat the 1-man Cavs just like Lebron beat the 1-man Warriors, or Baron Davis beat the 1-man Mavs in 07'.. It happens.
The idea that "73 wins = stacked" robs Curry of carrying a +2800 roster and sidekick that produced less than Hornacek to 67 and 73 wins.
How many All-NBA's for Klay if he was losing on the Wizards?...... without the winning spotlight of titles and Curry's generational brand of ball?..
The most overrated players ever are career 2nd options that were elevated to media accolade by titles and winning spotlight.
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Recent thread cliffs
* Fidstar destroyed over the scoring issue
* The idea that "73 wins = stacked" robs curry of carrying a +2800 roster to 67/73 wins and a sidekick that produced less than Hornacek (previous post).. Essentially, who cares about "beating a 73-win team" if it was a 1-man team that was carried to 67 and 73 wins?.. It's like saying Dwight beat the "stacked" 66-win Cavs in 2009, and Mo actually outproduced 16' Klay that year (previous post).. Or did Baron Davis beat a "stacked" 67-win Mavs team in 07'???.. Of course not - these 1-man carry-jobs happen from time to time... Ultimately, it means nothing to beat a 1-man team (Warriors) with a big 3 and preseason favorite (Cavs).
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Curry had a 1-man team:
Regular Seasonhttps://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hornaje01.html..... 17.7 PER.. 2.9 bpm.. 0.153 ws/48.. 42.1 vorp.. 15/3/5 on 58.2 tsBasketball-Reference.comJeff Hornacek Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Draft Status and more | Basketball-Reference.comhttps://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/thompkl01.html............... 16.4 PER.. 0.7 bpm.. 0.110 ws/48.. 14.4 vorp.. 19/3/2 on 57.5 tsBasketball-Reference.comKlay Thompson Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Draft Status and more | Basketball-Reference.com
Playoffshttps://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hornaje01.html..... 16.5 PER.. 3.1 bpm.. 0.145 ws/48.. 14.1 vorp.. 15/4/4 on 57.5 tsBasketball-Reference.comJeff Hornacek Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Draft Status and more | Basketball-Reference.comhttps://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/thompkl01.html............... 14.4 PER.. 0.7 bpm.. 0.091 ws/48.... 3.1 vorp.. 19/3/2 on 56.0 tsBasketball-Reference.comKlay Thompson Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Draft Status and more | Basketball-Reference.com
Lebron had a 1-man team just like Curry:
09' MO......... 2.3 BPM... 0.165 WS.48... 3.1 VORP... 17.2 PER
16' KLAY....... 1.8 BPM... 0.144 WS/48... 2.5 VORP... 18.6 PER
^^^ Dwight beat the 1-man Cavs just like Lebron beat the 1-man Warriors, or Baron Davis beat the 1-man Mavs in 07'.. It happens.
The idea that "73 wins = stacked" robs Curry of carrying a +2800 roster and a "less than Hornacek" sidekick to historic records just like 09' Lebron or 07' Dirk.
So Curry and Lebron's career have been misreported and misperceived - Curry carried a 1-man team just like 09' Lebron or 07' Dirk, and all these 1-man teams were massively-upset in the playoffs
How many All-NBA's for Klay if he was losing on the Wizards?...... without the winning spotlight of titles and Curry's generational brand of ball?..
The most overrated players ever are career 2nd options that were elevated to media accolade by titles and winning spotlight.
FG is the sort of guy that thinks Jordan Poole is better than Draymond Green because he scores more.
