GOAT NBA Discussion: Biggest fraud poster: fallguy. Super AIDS Containment thread

You remember Durant joining the Warriors right? When the most winning team in history lost to LeBron, and decided they were no chance of beating him the following season, so went out and got a Top 3 player in the league.

Because the Warriors were a 1-man team.

Their 2nd option under-produced 09' Mo.

It was a 1-man team against 3 franchise players assembled from 3 different teams (big 3)... Accordingly, the Warriors had to get a 2nd franchise player to try and catch up to the Cavs' 3 franchise players.

^^^ lol you heard that nonsense on TV

The union of KD and the Warriors was a response to the unprecedented "big 3" franchise players that Lebron assembled from 3 different teams... The Cavs simply had far more talent, such as a 2nd option that dominated Curry - the Warriors can't win if their best player is getting outplayed by the Cavs' 2nd option.

The 2016 Cavs were Lebron's 6th straight preseason favorite, while no one else in history had more than 3 straight, so the Warriors were responding to this unprecedented deck-stackage.. Curry's 1-man team had no chance against 3 franchise players (big 3).

^^^ again, the term "73-win team" robs Curry of having the 1-man team and carry-job that Lebron or Dirk got credit for, despite higher-producing teammates in 09' or 07', respectively.

So you were fed a bag of lies from buffoons on TV.. They pretend that 3 franchise players on 1 team (big 3) is infact a 1-man team and the Warriors were responding to just Lebron.. They ignore that Kyrie destroyed Curry, so the Warriors were responding to that and the superior talent of Lebron's big 3's (6 straight preseason favorites)....

The media ignores that Lebron is the only guy in the league with multiple franchise players on his team (super-team), while everyone else has "normal" rosters of 1 franchise player (Curry's Warriors, Duncan's Spurs, Dirk's Mavs, baby Thunder, etc).

Golden post !

Taking your own arguments Â…

So curry was a one man team not even the favourites in 2016 ?
Ok then KD is an incredible player far better than curry !
When KD join , the warriors became the only team in history to have negative has being favourites in pre season .
No team had ever had those kind of massive pre season favourites !
So KD took a second seated team and put it at the biggest favorited all time !
Doesnt sound curry is awesome or a 1 man team does it Â….
Or KD just massively a better player .

So you prove curry isnÂ’t top 10 , since he get destroyed once by a second option in a final Â…
How many time u uses that to downgrade pippen, lebron ,etcÂ…

Rodman was a complete non-scorer, while Battier and company were carefully-selected floor spacers to execute Bron-ball.

And Rodman was like 2009 Ben Wallace or 2010 Shaq - old and washed up - so you can't compare him to peak Rodman from the Pistons.. Kukoc beat out Rodman for the starting spot in the 98' Playoffs and then was the true 2nd option for the 4th quarter and clutch-time over Pippen (Kukoc was 2nd on Bulls in 4th quarter scoring for 98' Playoffs).

So all your narratives are wrong... Infact, Curry won with 8 ppg from Dray in 2022 Playoffs at 32 MPG... Otoh, Lebron's chips were manufactured because his titles show only 3 guys over 30 minutes for the playoffs of his title runs... The only exception is 2012 when Battier actually played 32 MPG at 7 ppg .. ... But Lebron had reduced Bosh to 12 and 14 ppg for the 12' and 13' title runs!!!!.... that type of teammate marginalization and team destruction from their true ceiling ("not 6, not 7") takes him out of any goat debate.

The thing is everyone talks about how Rodman was a "zero on offense" except he Wasn't.

With the amount of offensive rebounds he grabbed, he directly correlated with more points for his team on offense.

Now fallguy is going to make 10 posts trying to disprove my very simple basketball logic.

KD could never have a 1-man carry-job of 73 wins with a sidekick that under-produced 09' Mo... He could also never win with Wiggins at sidekick.

KD's jumper is really good, but Curry is the goat shooter that allows a goat system - Curry is a Houdini off screens that wears out defenses, while KD likes to iso and takes less energy to guard - KD's game allows fresher opponents that perform better than Curry's worn-out opponents, aka 67 & and 73 wins with trash (+2800 preseason odds/roster)

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Van Gundy

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=G2Xz4K42gX...

Rodman's ppg was 7.5, 4.0 and 4.9 in the 96-98' Playoffs, so replacing him with 12 ppg from Horace Grant or Horry would produce FAR better team offense than Rodman getting a couple extra OREBS.

So again, the Bulls won IN SPITE of Rodman's offensive ineptness.. Rodman also shot 37% on those 4-5 ppg, so he was a massive drag on the team compared to Horace getting 12 on 50% with solid rebounding/defense.. This is true for Kukoc playing BAD defense - Kukoc's horrific defense/rebounding was preferred in the 98' Playoffs over Rodman due to Kukoc's OFFENSE.

Again, old Rodman was the same as 2009 Ben Wallace or 2010 Shaq.. The difference is that Jordan dragged that crap to titles, so Rodman maintained his rep... Surely the fossil versions of Shaq and Wallace would've been looked at with rose-colored glasses if Lebron won in those years like he was favored to.

Furthermore, the link above shows Jeff Van Gundy saying that double-teaming Jordan kills a teams defensive rebounds - Jordan was frequently doubled with big men, so Rodman got uncontested OREBS alongside Jordan, who was attracting bigs away from Rodman.. This is bball 101.. Old Rodman was a largely useless player that survived off of the mental game and bluster to fool people... just like Draymond tbh, except old Rodman was a much worse version of Dray.

a couple extra OREBS???

You don't even fact check. LOL

King of fake narratives = fallguy

Dennis Rodman averaged 5.4 offensive rebounds per game during the 1996 NBA Playoffs, which was the most in the league during that postseason. He grabbed a total of 41 offensive boards throughout the playoffs, leading the Bulls to their fourth NBA championship.

In the 91-93' Playoffs, Horace averaged 3.2 - 3.5 OREBS compared to 3.1 - 5.4 for Rodman in 96-98' Playoffs.

So again, 0 to 2 extra OREBS doesn't offset 5-10 more ppg on far better efficiency... Rodman averaged 4 ppg on 37% for the 97' and 98' Playoffs, while Horace averaged 12 on 55% for the 91-93' Playoffs, so 1 extra OREB means nothing.

So I guess you're extremely wrong on this one...

Again, old Rodman was the same as 2009 Ben Wallace or 2010 Shaq... The difference is that Jordan dragged that crap to titles, so Rodman maintained his rep... Surely the fossil versions of Shaq and Wallace would've been looked at with rose-colored glasses if Lebron won in those years like he was favored to... Ultimatelly, Tomi Kukoc beat out fossil Rodman for the starting spot in the 98' Playoffs....

Of course we judge Dennis Rodman's value by his ppg.

Obviously!

But that's actually a weird one. Because FG actually watched those games. If you can't see how good Rodman was in the Seattle Finals, then you don't know basketball.

I mean even GK and Kemp thought so... https://www.basketballnetwork.net/old-sc...

I get that he doesn't know anything about the game for the last 10 years. He didn't watch it. To not know how important Green was to the offense in the pre-Durant Warriors is understandable if you didn't watch them play.

I watched every second of the 96' Finals and discussed extensively with college buddies at the time, so I don't need to see Payton or Kemp's hottakes 30 years after the fact, seeking 1 last headline of relevancy.. I don't need that because I know what happened.

the sonics COWERED in the face of the mighty Bulls and were down 0-3 QUICKLY - they didn't get over their nerves and settle down until garbage time when the series was effectively over.. That's how great the Bulls were - they frequently won via intimidation alone... Knowing this deep down (that they were scared) must be very embarrassing for Kemp and Payton 30 years later... This also happened to the Suns in 93'.. The only teams that could compete with the championship Bulls were the Blazers, Knicks, Jazz and Pacers.. Everyone else cowered or were shook in some way mentally.. (I might be leaving a team or 2 out, but that's the gist of it).

It's also noteworthy that Kemp dominated Rodman, while Payton and Schrempf dominated Pippen, so MJ was forced to make up for Pippen and Rodman getting out-produced in their matchups.. Let that sink - MJ's performance made up for Pippen and Rodman getting outplayed by their matchups..

Ultimately, Kukoc could've easily started at PF like he did for the 98' Playoffs, so the dominant Bulls could've won without rodman entirely, but they couldn't win without MJ obviously.. Anyone that watched the series knows that Kukoc "got hot" and "took over" several times (shown below) - he was the only guy that attracted any defensive attention to give MJ breathing room, so he was more valuable than Rodman in that series.. The Bulls would've been in a massive DOGFIGHT if Kukoc doesn't go on mini personal runs.. aka Kukoc took over Game 1 (here) and Game 3 (here), and also Game 2 here.

So again, the Bulls couldn't win without Jordan, but they would've won without Rodman - Kukoc could've started ahead of him like the 98' Playoffs.. Kukoc was the only "scorer" outside of MJ, since Pippen's true shooting was below the team's average (negative ) and among the worst ever.

And certainly not for bill Russel !
Like only 3rd best or 4th scorer of his team most of the time .
Abysmal FG% , horrible free throw shooters , but hey rodman sucks with mj...

After all, rodman was just the leaders in rbn in the entire leagues, even simultaneously leader on offensive and defensive rbn leader in 1996, especially in the 96 final !
Hi Seattle ….

But hey Russell #2 all time because FG decided his special…
He shouldnt be judge like all the others .

Playoffs

91-93' Horace.......... 11.7 on 56%... 3.3 OREB
96-98' Rodman.......... 5.4 on 41%... 4.4 OREB

Keep in mind that Jordan 3-peated with that crap, while Lebron can't have a non-offensive player like that playing major minutes.. Bron-ball needs too much scoring help.

Furthermore, the stats above show that 1 extra offensive rebound doesn't offset playing 4 on 5 offensively... Kemp also dominated Rodman in the Finals.

And Rodman averaged 6.6 on 54% during the 88-90' Playoffs, so he was washed up from 96-98' at 36 years old just like 2010 Shaq or 2009 Ben Wallace.. The difference is that Jordan dragged that crap to titles... History shows that Rodman's reputation cratered alongside MVP Robinson in 1995 and then again in 1999 alongside Shaq/Kobe - only MJ commanded Rodman's respect and gave him a 3-peat

The lack of spacing in 2-pointer basketball caused horrific efficiency, which allowed teams to win with defense... So the best players and MVP's were often defenders... This is why Russell is the best player from 2- pointer basketball, which puts him at #2 behind the best player from 3-pointer basketball (MJ)...

Again, the scoring requirements that I require from 3-point era players doesn't apply to the 2-pointer era, since the best players and MVP's in 2-pointer basketball could be defenders - they didn't have to be dominant offensive players like 3-point era MVP's.

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https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ki9v-JNQmv...

MJ hours before Game 4 of 1996 Finals:[

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfAoaAb3...

^^^ MJ planning his vacation, while Payton frothing at the mouth - nothing to lose - needs to save some face... Oh, and refs swallow whistle of course.

The Sonics surprised MJ by putting Payton on him, so he mistakenly reverted to his Bad Boys mentality where he wants to prove he's physically superior by going to the hole.. In this case, he wanted to repeatedly post up Payton.. But the refs had swallowed their whistles, so Jordan couldn't get the ball - he needed to accept that he could just shoot jumpers over Payton all day, which is how he became unshackled against Starks in Game 4 of the 93' ECF, or how he ultimately beat the Pistons in 91' - aka mostly jumpers - he would've figured this out against Payton, so putting Payton on MJ from Game 1 does nothing... The refs are also calling it tight in game 1, so Payton gets in foul trouble QUICKLY, and Coach Karl will take Payton off MJ for the rest of the series (sort of like KD vs Bron in the 12' Finals where KD couldn't guard Lebron without fouling... and a switch was made for the rest of the series).

Btw, the YouTube channel "Nobody Touches Jordan" showed that Jordan was doubled on 10 of the 20 times Jordan caught the ball with Payton on him in Game 4 here... Meanwhile, another YouTuber looked at all the shots that MJ took on Payton and found that MJ shot excellently (56%) and his bad efficiency was against other defenders (above).

ah yes the spacing in mj era was very wide lol...

again, u keep repeating the same ****.
russell was atrocious in scoring points but everyone gets a pass.

show it to us...
in rebounding rodman dominated in the final

https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1996-nba-finals-supersonics-vs-bulls.html

Basketball-Reference.com

1996 NBA Finals - SuperSonics vs. Bulls | Basketball-Reference.com

btw im sure you know better then kemp himself.

that sound a pretty good player being has important defensively as Russell.
no no FG said he sucks

Thought MJ was the most competitive player of all time? This is pathetic. Chance to be the GOAT playoff team and comes out and shoots 6/19 with more turnovers than assists or rebounds. One of the most terrible performances of all time in a close out game.

Swallowed whistle? Checks notes. MJ shot 13 free throws. Bulls shot the same amount of free throws as the Sonics and had the same number of foul calls.

Only a MJ-fan-bois would not realise that was horrible.

Meanwhile the real MVP of the series (Rodman) had 14 boards and shot 4/6.

MJ took 13 more shots to make 2 more.

Shesh!

But it's okay, he definitely turned up for the close out game right?

Oh.... 5/19 with 5 TOs.

Yeah, MJ was amazing.

So much terrible stuff here. MJ carried the team averaging 27/5/4 on 41% shooting. smh.

MJ had an eFG% of 43%. Not really the series to be bragging about efficiency.

More I think about it Kemp was the best player that series.

Rodman second.

MJ probably third though. I mean, if you take enough shots your stats aren't going to be too bad.

I also love it when FG using quotes from 90s players as facts, but if they are anti-Jordan it's "old guys trying to grab headlines".

Finals

96' Jordan....... 53.8 TS*
13' Lebron...... 52.9 TS

* carried scoring load on championship level (defeated max defensive attention)

^^^ it's great that MJ always proves superior once you get into the weeds... ALWAYS...

Btw, it's clear that some series simply play tougher and have lower efficiencies for everyone across the board.

And btw, Lebron averaged 16 on 39% to get a 1-2 deficit, while his 23 on 43% was insufficient through 6 games and needed Ray Allen to force Game 7... i.e. 23 on 43% was insufficient, but Jordan's 27 on 42% would've been enough to close it out in 6.

1996 Finals

Jordan..... 27 on 42%
Pippen.... 15 on 34%

^^^^ Jordan faced max defensive attention and won, while Lebron never did - Lebron never successfully carried the scoring load on the championship level, and he never carried weak help over top teams (never beat top 5 SRS team with weak scoring & efficiency from a sidekick)..

Again, the issue is that excessive ball-dominance can't beat top teams, so Lebron can't beat top teams at high scoring levels.. His inability to carry the "star" category of scoring requires more stars and prevents GM's from getting the right defenders or "others", aka elite roster construction.. Without elite roster construction, Lebron can't win with "normal" rosters of 1 franchise players (organically).

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Magic and isiah coming clean about MJ:

My quotes are stuff they said in the 90's WHILE IT WAS HAPPENING (see link above), while your quotes are stuff from disgruntled players looking for headlines and relevancy 30 years after the fact.

Pretty big difference

spacing has continually improved as time goes by... pretty simple.. it adds up.

Nah bruh - Russell frequently averaged 18-22 ppg on various title runs.

so ONLY RODMAN is horrible at scoring, while Russell was decent, but simply wasn't the leading scorer on his team.. But again, players in 2-pointer basketball don't need to be dominant scorers to be MVP-caliber... So they can be in my top 10 without the dominant scoring requirements that I have for modern players