GOAT NBA Discussion: Biggest fraud poster: fallguy. Super AIDS Containment thread

In Game 6, guys like Pippen, Rodman, and Harper let their man go off, while Jordan held Hawkins to 12 points below his normal average, which was the margin of victory (12 points).

Jordan led the defense, assists and points, while his defensive attention got teammates every look they had..

So no

Lebron lost many Finals by playing worse than anyone ever has, such as the 07' and 11' Finals - he had 8 point games or 10 turnovers in 1 game...

So Lebron's worst is much worse than Jordan's worst..

Jordan's worst is still pretty good and led the team in points, assists and defense - he was never carried by teammates, while Lebron was carried by Boobie Gibson in the closeout game of 07' ECF.

And Jordan already had the goat playoff team in 1991, while having the GOAT team in 1996.. So you're complaining about.... literally nothing.

Payton was fouling Jordan when Jordan didn't have the ball - Jordan couldn't catch the ball.. If the game was called regularly, Payton would've picked up 3 quick fouls in the 1st quarter..

Unfortunately, the refs assumed a sweep like everyone else and had planned THEIR vacation just like the Bulls had.. So they swallowed their whistles - no one felt sorry for the Bulls... The Sonics were simply desperate and playing football, so Jordan would've had 20 FT's if the game was called normally.

^^^ any bum can do that.

The Jazz were considered much better than the Sonics, yet the Bulls still won with Rodman getting 4/8 on 37%.. So the Bulls find ways to win regardless of what the PF does.

Ultimately, the Bulls won titles with 3 different starting PF's, and they were all role players.. .. Otoh, Lebron needs franchise players at PF, while still needing a Jordan-like closer like Wade, Kyrie or Luka - it's insane... Accordingly, Lebron is complete trash compared to Jordan.. His suboptimal style of play and brand of ball requires the most help ever, yet still mostly loses - Lebron isn't capable of a great team regardless of cast, which makes him objectively inferior to a lot of guys.

Pippen did exactly that 18-22 ppg in playoffs while being a defensive anchor !

And for the record comparing Rodman and Russel is hilarious!
No one ever claim Rodman was #2 all time .

Yes here we go changes parameters to make your conclusion right lol.
Well it’s a good thing this isn’t a science subject .
You would failed at every turn .

Ps: The 90s were amongst the lowest scoring average because they sucked with big spacing right ….?

I mean a guy averaging 50 ppg in the 1960s demonstrate how lack of spacing there was .

Pps: : after kemp totally destroyed your narrative about Rodman , you became pretty quiet about kemp now …

by fallguy m

Finals96' Jordan....... 53.8 TS* 13' Lebron...... 52.9 TS* carried scoring load on championship level (defeated max defensive attention)

^^^ it's great that MJ always proves superior once you get into the weeds... ALWAYS... Btw, it's clear that some series simply play tougher and have lower efficiencies for everyone across the board.And btw, Lebron averaged 16 on 39% to get a 1-... See full post

..

There's no such thing as a non-big man being a "defensive anchor"... Perimeter players like MJ and Pippen actually have small impact on team defense, which is why the Bulls' team defense IMPROVED without Pippen for 35 games in 1998 - the Bulls were #1 defensively and then they dropped to 9th after Pippen returned.. Similarly, the Bulls improved defensively without MJ in 1994.

So neither were "anchors" like Russell, Hakeem, Mutombo, Ben Wallace, etc... That's just absurd

However, Jordan did match or exceed Pippen in DPOY voting for 7 of 9 seasons, so he was considered the better defender... There's plenty of footage where announcers are saying "Jordan is the team's best defender".. or "Jordan is the best defender in the league" (he inspires a team like no other)

Offensively, Pippen = Ben Simmons....

Specifically, Pippen had worst-ever efficiency in 93', 96' and 98' Playoffs, which allowed coaches to sag off him and pack the paint like he's Zion or Ben Simmons - Jordan won with the biggest lane-clogger ever..

And don't lie about Pippen's PPG... He averaged 17.6 on 41% for the 96-98' Playoffs, and this included worst-ever efficiency in 96' and 98' - he was UNDER 17 ppg for the 96' and 98' Playoffs.... He also had worst-ever efficiency for the 93' Playoffs and let Dominique destroy him ... X-Man also destroyed him in 1992, which nearly caused loss... Then he stunk from 88-90' or 99-03'..

So the only viable playoff run that Pippen had was 1991... It's the only run that he didn't massively choke and wet the bed in a series

I didn't compare Russell and Rodman - you did - you said that Russell was an "atrocious" scorer like Rodman.

Efficiency was horrible from the 50's through 70's because of no spacing, but efficiency gradually improved as spacing improved... Today's beginner format has the highest efficiency ever.

Yes , bill Russel to be considered #2 all time was an atrocious scorer ….
Especially all you cared is offense except when it comes for Russel .

Pippen equating Ben Simmons , I think we can put the rest the discussion with you .
It show how you don’t make sense .
Thx .

If Bill Russell was an atrocious scorer at 18-22 ppg for title runs, then what was Rodman at 4-6 ppg?

Again, you compared them by saying Russell was an atrocious scorer like Rodman

And you keep acting like you can't read - I told you why Russell didn't have to be a dominant scorer to be in the top 10 (elite offense wasn't required in 2-pointer basketball to be MVP)

Finally, Pippen was a system player that struggled mightily outside the triangle and otherwise was a worse scorer than Ben Simmons.

Simmons can break guys down off-the-dribble in the halfcourt, while Pippen cannot.. Otherwise, they're extremely similar, aka - neither could shoot or score

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Title Teams With The Lowest Scoring Supporting Casts For The Overall Playoffs

Post-1954 (Shot Clock Era)

10. 1994 Rockets - 68.3 PPG
9. 2006 Heat - 67.8 PPG
8. 1993 Bulls - 67.3 PPG
7. 2012 Heat - 67.0 PPG
6. 1996 Bulls - 66.7 PPG
5. 1992 Bulls - 65.9 PPG
4. 2004 Pistons - 65.6 PPG
3. 1999 Spurs - 65.2 PPG
2. 1997 Bulls - 61.5 PPG
1. 1998 Bulls - 60.8 PPG

https://boxden.com/showthread.php?t=3172...

^^^ 5 of Jordan's 6 titles - pretty compelling

Pippen shot 34% for the series, so he couldn't handle additional load and needed to shoot less.

So the Bulls had no firepower in the starting lineup except Jordan - if he didn't shoot, there would be no shot attempt on many possessions.. Very few Finals have been won with such little scoring help - the top 10 lowest-scoring title casts in the shot-clock era include 5 of Jordans 6 titles (above).

And again, we've already established that Lebron's worst is far worse than MJ's, including wetting the bed in closeout games and getting carried by teammates (07' ECF), or having worse true shooting than Jordan to win a Finals (13' vs 96')... Jordan had better efficiency despite facing max defensive attention (carrying scoring load).

Btw, you should be aware that the Sonics had 4 legit 20 ppg scorers with Hawkins, Schrempf, Payton and Kemp - they had far more firepower than the Bulls and 3 All-NBA'ers in 95'.. There's no contender that didn't have more offensive help than the Bulls, and the Bulls had lower defensive ranking than 4 of 6 ECF or Finals opponents during the 1st three-peat.

Btw, we know that Lebron can't win with Draymond or Pippen, since his skillset of turning everyone into spot-up shooter never developed any young player, and Pippen/Draymond needed a ton of development..... Draymond's assists would crater alongside Lebron just like everyone else's did, and it's always worse for a fellow forward - they actually play a similar role, so it would be the worst fit of all-time - Dray would never develop... Dray would get cut early on and be off the team entirely... This goes for a bricklayer like Pippen too - his assists would crater, while his bricklaying wouldn't provide spacing that LeDrive needs and get cut like Dray - we're talking about the YOUNG versions of these players before they developed alongside off-ball skillsets (MJ, Curry).. Lebron's ball-domination would turn them into spot-up shooter, which is why zero players grew from low producer to meaningful producer on his watch in 22 years.

Ben Simmons was a prodigal #1 pick and far more talented then Pippen - he was All-NBA and All-Defense at 23 years old, while being a better passer/creator than Pippen ever was.

However, the stunted development of Ben Simmons shows how Pippen would've been if he didn't land in the perfect development situation alongside MJ.. For example, if Pippen landed on the stacked Lakers, he would've been buried on the bench instead of getting good minutes as a rookie in Chicago... Meanwhile, Magic would likely want Pippen to spot-up more often (his weakness) compared to MJ's off-ball game putting the ball in Pippen's hands.. It's common knowledge that MJ made Pippen (above).. This is the consensus by Pippen, MJ, Phil, the entire Bulls team, media and fans that were there at the time.

Rookies that need development should want to land alongside off-ball players like Curry, MJ, or Duncan, since their skillset puts the ball in young players' hands and has a substantial record of teammate development (Pippen, Grant, BJ, Poole, Draymond, Klay, Wiggins, Manu, Parker)... Contrastingly, developing rookies should treat ball-dominators like Luka and Lebron like the plague, since their skillsets of turning everyone into spot-up shooter never developed anyone and has a long list of bad fits or teammates cratering (Love, Bosh, Jamison, Hughes, Ingram, Kuzma, Brunson, Porzingas, many more).

This is all historical record and bball 101

Prime Draymond would be an excellent guest on the Draymond Green Show.

So if George Karl said it back then, then it must be true?

Also, just while I got you.

When players/commentators/ex-players say LeBron is the GOAT now they are lying, disgruntled ex-players.

When players/commentators/ex-players say Jordan is the GOAT back in the 90s they aren't lying, disgruntled ex-players.

You don't see the irony?

George Karl is the worst coach of all-time and it doesn't surprise me that he doesn't know why he lost.. He butchered that series.

Watch George Karl here in the huddle trying to motivate the Sonics in Game 2 - NO ONE LIKES THAT **** (just like the all caps are annoying) - he isn't motivating anyone.. He never had the composure or gravitas to command the respect of his players like Phil, Pop, Riley, or KC Jones..

And of course, his strategy was horrific - no one had bigger playoff disappointment than George Karl, including a "2011 Lebron-style" goat upset loss in the 93' Playoffs - it was the first-ever 8 vs 1 upset... Again, no surprise that he doesn't know why he lost.

Outside of people that work for Klutch or are affiliated, I haven't heard players say Lebron is goat without qualifying it in some way.

Otoh, the number of players/coaches that say MJ is GOAT and their level of conviction and reverence is on another level from Lebron.

We saw it at the top 75 players ceremony - everyone knew when the GOAT arrived.

Lebron will never be at this level.. Marbury says it best when describing how Lebron airballs FT's - "you from HERE.. you not from THERE"... lol.. No one talks like that about MJ.

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Halfway through this clip, Penny states that the 94' Bulls were the biggest letdown game of the year and teams stayed out all night before playing them because "no MJ":

And of course the hungover Magic were blown away by the desperate Bulls

So it's all exactly like I've been saying... The "real" Bulls without MJ were barely .500 in 95' before MJ returned..

Pippen was never a "franchise player" that could build a team from scratch - he was simply handed the most well-oiled machine ever and fully-developed dynasty, which he cratered to .500 in less than 18 months)

Btw, I did not call Penny Hardaway and tell him to back up my "55 letdown games" theory.. And it was never a theory - it was always intuitive, and I'm not surprised that we now have hardcore evidence that it was infact the case.

I always provide evidence, i.e. close-up footage and rare angle of Pippen's foul on Hubert Davis from the New York local broadcast, or evidence that shows all the best teams ever (dynasties or dominant title runs) were led by off-ball players with assisted rates of 47% or more.

FG provides evidences lol .
Yeah conflicting evidences every hours of the week .

94
Pippen had his best season
Grant had his best season
Armstrong and Kerr arguably had their best season too .

95 Grant was not even there and it shows terribly how much he was needed .
the super bad player Rodman u claim, filled that hole .
Yes see defense and rebound do matters in winning teams

14 ppg was their "best" - lol - BJ and Grant - they're nothing compared to the same options on other teams...

Look at similar options on the Knicks - there's no comparison.. The Knicks had 5 bigs that were equal or better than Grant, while BJ and Kerr wouldn't make the Knicks roster - Kerr was waived and out of the league until MJ saved his career.

And Pippen wasn't a go-to player that commanded defensive attention or double-teams like most 1st options.. The Bulls also had no 2nd and 3rd scorer in the starting lineup like every contender did - this inferior talent proves that they won via 3-peat chemistry and sleeping opponents/letdown games (see the Penny video).

Opponents were sleeping during the 94' regular season but were forced to wake up in the playoffs and following season..

It's that simple

That's why the Bulls cratered in the playoffs and then 95' regular season

Grant was replaced by Ron Harper, while Kukoc moved into the starting lineup, and there were other additions as well.. So no

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New Double Crossover (half speed):

Full speed and full clip:

Nice 👍

09' MO......... 2.3 BPM... 0.165 WS.48... 3.1 VORP... 17.2 PER
16' KLAY...... 1.8 BPM... 0.144 WS/48... 2.5 VORP... 18.6 PER

Saying that Jamison/Shaq were added to a 66-win league favorite robs Lebron of the carry-job in 09', while saying that KD was added to a 73-win team robs Curry of his carry-job despite lesser-producing teammates than 09' Lebron or 07' Dirk (stats in previous post).. Accordingly, the proper way to say it is that "KD was added to a 1-man team that won 73 games".

This union was necessary because a "normal" roster of 1 franchise player can't compete with a super-team of 3 franchise players, and a +2800 preseason roster can't compete with someone that assembled a record 6 straight preseason favorites (the previous record was 3 straight).

lol.
You lost FG.
Just quit .
KD comparable to Shaq in Cleveland lol .

Get better reading comprehension ability and you won't get proven wrong so much and owned in debates

Also, get a spine. You used to argue against lebron

The point was that the term "66-win team" implies stacked team - that's the point... Same thing with "73-win team" even though Curry's high usage teammates (Klay )were lower producers than Lebron's (Mo)

Your case is so bad that it's actually turned pro Jordan guys to pro-LeBron guys.

KD is obviously better than Jamison.or old Shaq - that isn't the point.

The point is that BEFORE those additions, the 09' Cavs and 16' Warriors were 1-man teams with low-producing bums at 2nd option.

So saying they were a "66-win team" or 73-win team" implies they were stacked, and therefore robs Lebron or Curry of their carry-jobs.

However, we only say that about Curry - we say "KD was added to a 73-win team" (stacked team)... This robs Curry of his carry-jobs in 15' and 16', while Lebron's carry-jobs are intact because no one says "66-win team", or that "Jamison was added to a 66-win team"... But the reality is that winning 73 games as the only high producer is a bigger carry-job than winning 66, especially with a lower-producing running mate/sidekick.

And low usage role players like Draymond are a function of the system/Curry.. We also know that Draymond's assists would crater alongside Lebron and he wouldn't develop because Lebron never developed anyone in 22 seasons - no one grew from low producer to meaningful producer on his watch, and that's exactly what Draymond needed, along with a 1st option that doesn't crater everyone's assists..

Literally all the facts are on my side, so I'm quite satisfied that I've proven the point about Curry's 1-man teams and carry-jobs, aka KD was added to a 1-man team (just like Jamison was)... there's a REASON that curry was the first unanimous MVP - it's because everyone knew that he carried that team and his gravity/defensive attention was unprecedented.

Ultimately, the union of KD/Curry occurred because a "normal" roster of 1 franchise player can't compete with a super-team of 3 franchise players....And a +2800 preseason roster that came out of nowhere can't compete with someone that assembled a record 6 straight preseason favorites (the previous record was 3 straight).

Thanks bossman.

These other guys take it so personally that I proved Lebron is overrated