GOAT NBA Discussion: Biggest fraud poster: fallguy. Super AIDS Containment thread
Yes and they end up winning titles and always been considered 1st options ….Is winning a title needed stats for franchise players ?No of course but u actually should believe the guy actually good enough to win a final as a 1st option ….That is what is a franchise players .If not what we talking about , just leading a team is enough regardless what the team does ? A
Poole isn't an elite producer, so he isn't a franchise player.
I have to look at Markkenan.. I don't know about him, but I'm sure that he's closer to being a franchise player than Poole, who is a Klay/Mo level player.
And you're saying that a franchise player must be capable of being the best player on a champion but then that means Barkley and Karl Malone aren't franchise players... Neither is Lebron because he needed 2nd and 3rd franchise players to win - he wasn't good enough to win with "normal" rosters of 1 franchise player, similar to Malone and Barkley.. Heck, Hakeem needed MJ to become a baseball player (and let guys catch up a little)... This is why your criteria is wrong.
Accordingly, elite producer + your own team = franchise player...
And we're talking about guys that are tasked with building bad teams... Ultimately, most will fail to build "normal " rosters significantly, or into title teams (aka Ewing, Barkley, Malone, Lebron)..
Toronto then missed the playoffs for the following two seasons while Bosh was there.Back to 2008... When you say 500. They were exactly that 41-41. Toronto wasn't actually too bad that year. I'd argue Calderón was the number 2 (15th in the league in VORP & WSs - both higher than Bosh). But I know you sort by PPG like an amateur. He was very good that year.Bosh obviously choked
Ingram, Caruso, Kuzma, Zubac, and Rondo are all better than Calderon, yet Lebron was lottery.
AD, Dwight, and Westbrook are better than Calderon, yet Lebron was lottery.
All-star Zydrunas was better than Calderon, yet Lebron was lottery.
Calderon averaged 11 ppg - that matters - it means that the Raptors need to find stars/scorers to help Bosh
Btw, VORP and WS are minutes-based stats - Bosh only played 67 games compared to 82 for Calderon.. That's the only reason Bosh trailed Calderon by minuscule amounts in those areas - he basically tied Calderon despite playing 15 less games... This is why I use WS/48 instead of WS, and I generally don't use VORP unless the minutes are close between the 2 players..
Overall, stats like PER, OBPM and WS/48 are the best stats because they aren't influenced by minutes (VORP, WS), or team defense (DBPM), and they aren't steals-counters (DBPM, DRTG)... The steals-counting aspect is why Bird has better DBPM and DRTG than Scottie Pippen
Ingram, Caruso, Kuzma, Zubac, and Rondo are all better than Calderon, yet Lebron was lottery.AD, Dwight, and Westbrook are better than Calderon, yet Lebron was lottery.All-star Zydrunas was better than Calderon, yet Lebron was lottery.Calderon averaged 11 ppg - that matters - it means that the Raptors need to find stars/scorers to help BoshBtw, VORP and WS are minutes-based sta
What? You don't want to use VORP and WS comparing C + B. But you want to use OBPM and WS/48.
Okay...
Kidd averaged 11-15ppg and was awesome some years. So did Chris Paul. So did Draymond Green.
Stop sorting by ppg.
It's so dumb. Even for you.
The goat from 3-pointer basketball is #1 (MJ), followed by the goat from 2-pointer basketball (Russell), followed by Wilt and Kareem... Of course the guys from 2-pointer basketball don't have the dominant offensive requirements that the 3-pointer basketball guys have, since the best players and MVP's back then could be mostly defensive players.
Ultimately, the skillsets that were 1st option for all the dynasties and dominant champions (the best basketball) were bigs or jumpshooters (never ball-dominators), so the top 10 is a subjective mix of the best bigs and jumpshooters ever (i.e. my top 10).
My overall rankings are MJ, Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Kobe, Bird, Curry, Duncan, Shaq, Jokic (or Magic).
Jokic is a better scorer-passer-rebounder than Magic or Lebron, while destroying them statistically (PER, BPM, etc), and not needing super-team help like they did (the ball-dominator skillset needs the most help, aka not in top 10).
Btw, I put Kobe behind the great bigs so that people won't disregard my rankings the instant they see Kobe at #2.. But he's #2.. However, in theory, all the bigs in my top 10 could be ranked together (Russell, Wilt, KAJ, Duncan, Shaq, Jokic)..
Kidd averaged 11-15ppg and was awesome some years. So did Chris Paul. So did Draymond Green.
Stop sorting by ppg.
It's so dumb. Even for you.
Calderon isn't anywhere near CP3 or Kidd (goat PG's)
Stop making bad arguments.. Calderon is closer to Ramon Sessions
And I think Lebron played with Calderon, so the 11th options for Lebron (Calderon and Parker), were Bosh's top options
95% of what I say goes unrefuted - you simply pick one thing to dispute and are still proven wrong
What? You don't want to use VORP and WS comparing C + B. But you want to use OBPM and WS/48.
You're also making the same mistake of comparing the advanced stats of high usage players to low usage players, which is invalid.. It can't be done
And again, you're saying Bosh should've done better with Calderon when Lebron was lottery with better teammates in 2019, and also 04', 05' and 22', while only winning 45 games in 08' with about 6 guys that were better than Calderon
Calderon was a BUM and bbq chicken for opposing guards
My main issue with Lebron is that I don't believe he ever learned the best way to play basketball, i.e. the top strategy and brand of basketball (elite ball movement) that all the dynasties had..
And the reason he never learned or implemented this top brand/system is because he can't move or score off-screens at an elite level, let alone the all-time level required by the 1st options of these systems - these systems require goat off-ball players like Curry, MJ, Shaq, and Duncan.. Since Lebron lacks the expert jumpshooting skill, pure scoring instinct off-the-catch and/or post dominance to be this type of player, he's precluded from ever playing the best basketball (dynasty).
I generally pick a random point to fire back on because who has the time to prove each one of your talking points to be so incredibly wrong. It would be a full time job.
I generally pick a random point to fire back on because who has the time to prove each one of your talking points to be so incredibly wrong. It would be a full time job.
Agree .
The last few post was so bad I mean , it’s not even a pleasure to respond anymore.
Let him be in lalalàand .
Just stopped by to say it's still Jordan.
Betting on preseason favorites is profitable for pretty much any top 10 all-time candidate... It means nothing and has nothing to do with the points I made.Preseason favorites are used as a talking point because it shows how Lebron massively underachieves favored talent compared to his peers (not compared to all players in history like your analysis shows).When Curry, Duncan, K
^^^ might've been missed - it refutes the idea that "you would've won money betting on lebron's preseason favorites"
LeBron is +450 to start the season.
Why doesn't he win every year?
He's so bad...
If he was -150 each year, you might have a case.
This is the thread that never ends
It just goes 'round and 'round, my friends
Some people started posting in it
Not knowing what it was
And they'll continue posting in it forever just because
This is the thread that never ends
It just goes 'round and 'round, my friends
Some people started posting in it
Not knowing what it was
And they'll continue posting in it forever just because
This is the thread that never ends
It just goes 'round and 'round, my friends
Some people started posting in it
Not knowing what it was
And they'll continue posting in it forever just because
.
^^^ An ordinary thing like not losing money for bettors with preseason favorites was never the argument - it was a low bar that you introduced because Lebron fails the higher bar that his peers cleared.
Again, Lebron underperforms rosters compared to his peers by losing with preseason favorites, which Curry, Kobe, Duncan and MJ didn't do.. Lebron also never won without preseason favorites like Curry, MJ, Duncan and Kobe did.. These guys EARNED preseason favorite status by proving they could win with underdog rosters, while Lebron was simply handed a preseason favorite super-team.. It was a "big 3" of franchise players assembled from 3 different teams
So again, since Lebron frequently lost with preseason favorites while peers didn't, and since he never won without preseason favorites like his peers did, Lebron's teams are bad investments for bettors compared to other options (Curry, MJ, Duncan, Kobe, and many others).
Ultimately, only Lebron has a massive track record of falling from preseason favorite to underdog or loser, while never winning without the preseason favorite - i.e. you say "who cares about preseason favorites", except Lebron never won without them.. He needs favored rosters because his chemistry is the worst of all-time (turns everyone into spot-up shooter).. Furthermore, Lebron is the only guy with 3 straight losses as the favorite (09-11') and a lottery record against Finals teams (22-33). His weak chemistry simply underperforms roster talent, especially compared to other all-timers.
Agree .
The last few post was so bad I mean , it’s not even a pleasure to respond anymore.
Let him be in lalalàand .
We all know that Duncan's Spurs were viewed as the "smart team" that "plays the right way".
However, in 22 seasons, Lebron's teams were never viewed this way because his ball-monopilizing style prevents a ball movement system and actually lowers everyone's assists (low assist teams).
Otoh, Curry's Warriors or Jordan's Bulls were viewed similar to the Spurs.. Despite having "normal" rosters of 1 franchise player, no one ever said that these teams needed more help because the brand of ball was literally the best-ever.
If you can't see how Lebron's inferior brand of ball and crappier teams puts him on a lower level as a ballplayer, while explaining his lottery record against Finals teams, then I guess you aren't capable of understanding the logic or the game of basketball sufficiently.
Ultimately, when Lebron was 10 years old, some coach said "I've never seen anything like you kid - here's the ball, and you do whatever you want"... But Lebron never grew out of this basic brand of ball... So now late in his career, he's forced off-ball by Luka, and it's a nightmare!!! Lebron is a massive negative and the Lakers have upset loss in the 1st Round.. He's simply nowhere near the great off-ball player required of the ball movement systems that dynasties use
.^^^ An ordinary thing like not losing money for bettors with preseason favorites was never the argument - it was a low bar that you introduced because Lebron fails the higher bar that his peers cleared.Again, Lebron underperforms rosters compared to his peers by losing with preseason favorites, which Curry, Kobe, Duncan and MJ didn't do.. Lebron also never won without preseaso
My poop pic didn't work so google "rabbit poop".
It's a historical fact that Lebron underperforms rosters compared to his peers by losing with preseason favorites, which Curry, Kobe, Duncan and MJ didn't do.. Lebron also never won without preseason favorites like Curry, MJ, Duncan and Kobe did.. These guys EARNED preseason favorite status by proving they could win with underdog rosters, while Lebron was simply handed a preseason favorite super-team.. It was a "big 3" of franchise players assembled from 3 different teams
So again, since Lebron frequently lost with preseason favorites while peers didn't, and since he never won without preseason favorites like his peers did, Lebron's teams are bad investments for bettors compared to other options (Curry, MJ, Duncan, Kobe, and many others).
Ultimately, you say "who cares about preseason favorites", except Lebron never won without them.. He needs favored rosters because his chemistry is the worst of all-time (turns everyone into spot-up shooter).. Furthermore, Lebron is the only guy with 3 straight losses as the favorite (09-11') and a lottery record against Finals teams (22-33). His weak chemistry simply underperforms roster talent, especially compared to other all-timers.
Recent thread cliffs
Lebron's teams are a bad investment for bettors compared to peers, since he frequently loses with preseason favorites and can't win without preseason favorites.. Otoh, guys like Jordan, Curry, Kobe and Duncan never lost with preseason favorites and won without them, so their teams make far more money for bettors than Lebron's..
We're currently waiting on Fidstar to calculate how much money a bettor would miss out on by betting on Lebron's teams in the preseason compared to Kobe, MJ, Curry or Duncan
JFC
Being profitable with preseason favorites is a low bar that most players clear, so this doesn't prove that Lebron met expectation.. Lebron's expectation was "the chosen one", so barely scraping a profit with favorites like most players doesn't meet his all-time expectation.
To see if he met expectation, we have to compare his results to peers, and that's where he fails.. Specifically, Lebron drastically underachieved rosters compared to his peers by virtue of frequently losing with preseason favorites (unprecedented), and never winning without preseason favorites.. He also lost for a record 3 straight years as the favorite, which included the goat meltdown and goat choke.. Then he got upset in the 1st Round with Luka or AD.
TLDR: No one in history has more examples of underachieving expectation than Lebron, since he has the record for 1) the most losses with preseason favorites, 2) the most consecutive losses as the favorite 3) the most Finals losses, 4) 3 record margin losses despite 2 all-star teammates in 14', 17', and 18', and 5) the goat choke in 11' and goat meltdown in 10'... Ultimately, Lebron's skillset lacks the chemistry to win with "normal" rosters of 1 franchise player (turns everyone into spot-up shooter) - this weak chemistry underachieved rosters at historic levels.
Stats that MJ had the advantage:
* PPG
* OREB
* SPG
* BPG
* FT
* TO's
* PER
* BPM
* WS/48
* VORP
* PLUS/MINUS
* RAPTOR
* possessions used (USAGE)
* efficiency on those possessions (ORTG)
* assisted rate (ball movement)
Stats that Lebron has the advantage
* DREB (position-based)
* APG (ball-domination/hogs the assists/reduce teammates assists/low team assists/more losing)
* TS (drive-heavy attack, aka needs spacing/can't shoot over defenses, needs ball-dominance/no ball movement)
Summary: MJ's superior stats allowed him to have twice the title frequency and MVP frequency as Lebron, while winning with "normal" rosters of 1 franchise player instead of needing super-teams like Lebron
