GOAT NBA Discussion: Biggest fraud poster: fallguy. Super AIDS Containment thread

And just for the record. In MJs "dominating" games he averaged 31/5/5. LeBron in his "choking" averaged 25/11/8 on better efficiency.

Maybe FG thinks LeBron is so good that he actually sets a higher standard than he does for MJ?

Okay. Let's see what credibility you got left. Was LeBron better in the last 3 games against the Warriors than Jordan was in his last 3 games against the Sonic?

Despite being crush many time with many stats , u come back to that narrative lol …

Lebron always needed guys that could average 25+ with good efficiency on their own.. The reason that he needed his 2nd and 3rd options to be elite producers is because he's going to reduce them to lesser players and spot-up role, which includes lower PPG & APG.

Again, Lebron is a high-scoring primary ball-handler, aka ball-dominator - this skillset is suboptimal due to the large volume of unassisted buckets that leave teammates in spot-up roles with lower assists.. The lower assists from teammates produce low assist teams over time and this inherent assist deficit is present in every series loss of Lebron's playoff career.

Jordan averaged 6 more points and 4 less turnovers to get a 3-0 lead versus Lebron's 1-3 deficit.. That's the difference between delivering and choking (needing bailouts).

Given the massive gap in ppg and TO's, who cares about Lebron getting excessive numbers in the role player categories of RPG and APG - this hurts role players' capacity to produce, while the "westbrooking" is inferior chemistry that has a lottery record vs Finals teams (22-33).

And since Draymond was suspended for Game 5, it's impossible to compare to Jordan's last 3 games, since that's like removing the Sonics' best defender for Game 5 (Payton).. Jordan was also "more relaxed than he'd ever been in a Finals" before Game 4 (Jordan's own words), while Lebron was in desperation mode to save face after choking for 4 games - and he was about to get the bailouts he needed from the league and teammates, so all of these factors make it apples and oranges..

But if you're so desperate to hear that Lebron is better and therefore want me to compare his best games to Jordan's worst, than why don't you just ask me whether Lebron was better as a senior in high school than Jordan was in kindergarten, smh... Ultimately, Jordan's best was better than Lebron's best, and his worst was better than Lebron's worst.

Not connected with what I wrote.
Carry on .

If Lebron do too much , he steal the balls and talents from other players .
If Lebron pass the ball too much or give more room to other players , Lebron isn’t good enough because he can’t carry a team .

lol carry on .

On mobile. Send me a PM plz to remind me and I’ll do it.

Never mind, it's edited in the OP now: linked and quoted with your previous post as well for context.

Excellent work boss.

Standard.

anytime champ.

The point is that Lebron loads up on stats that are replaceable by role players (RPG, APG), while MJ loads up on the "star" category of scoring, thereby needing less stars/help... This allows GM's to get the right defenders/others, aka elite roster construction.. And MJ still has good rebounding and assist levels, but he doesn't do "westbrooking", aka blindly stat-padding at the expense of teammates..

Also, I never mentioned steals - I spoke about rebounds and assists, which Lebron craters for teammates.. Teammates see lower RPG, APG and PPG alongside Lebron, which is why he needs extra talent to offset the inevitable reduction (reducing everyone to spot-up role).

Otoh, teammates see higher RPG alongside Jordan because he commands double-teams, which
destroys the opponents' defensive rebounding, according to many coaches like Jeff Van Gundy - i.e. the double-teams take bigs away from the rim or their block-out assignment.. In addition to higher RPG, teammates see higher APG due to Jordan's off-ball game as the goat assist target.. Meanwhile, their PPG grew by leaps and bounds alongside MJ as well.. TLDR: Lebron reduces his teammates PPG/RPG/APG, while Jordan increases these categories for teammates.

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2010 PER

Lebron...... 1st
Wade........ 2nd
Bosh......... 4th


^^^ Lebron sorted by PER

3 franchise players from 3 different teams were put on 1 team, i.e. the top 3 players in the East on 1 team..

It's pure cheating, yet Lebron still had the goat choke, record loss, teammate bailout and a win over babies, aka the weakest 2 for 4 in history..

Lebron had 6 straight preseason favorites from 11' to 16', but fell to underdog or loser every year (except the Allen miracle).. So he's a perennial underachiever that oddsmakers hated in 2012 for losing as the favorite from 09-11'.. Accordingly, they made his veteran super-team an underdog to baby Westbrick - it's quite a historical fact.

Then Lebron lost in the 1st Round with AD and Luka.

You didn't write anything... You bolded the words "Love" and "Bosh", thus implying that they weren't franchise players.

But they had their own team and were top 3 in PER - Lebron put the top 3 PER's on 1 team (edit: bosh was 4th)

So again, Lebron was gifted 6 franchise players that were elite producers and had their own team (Wade, Bosh, Kyrie, Love, Luka, AD) - this is the most help that anyone ever had.

That's good - I want everyone to know why the 16' Finals was worse than all of MJ's and not even Lebron's best Finals.

It was only the last 3 games that Lebron averaged 36 and 3 TO's like MJ did for the entire 91-93' Finals.. Otherwise, Lebron averaged 24.7 and 6 TO's to get a 1-3 deficit - this is a fact.

However, Lebron's choking through 4 games didn't matter because history shows that it's impossible to lose if the sidekick DOMINATES the opposing 1st option.. So it speaks volumes Lebron was still headed to defeat and needed bailouts from teammates and the league to win.

Ultimately, Lebron had an equal-scoring partner to attract equal defensive attention, so he never had to defeat max defensive attention (carry scoring load) like MJ did in all 6 Finals..

Carrying the "star" category of scoring requires less stars, so GM's can get the right defenders/others, aka elite roster construction.. Accordingly, Lebron's inability to carry the scoring load against top teams prevents elite roster construction, while his "westbrooking" skillset of ball-domination needlessly pads role player categories and turns everyone into spot-up shooter.. This inferior chemistry is why his teams perennially underachieve, such as a super-team big 3 needing to comeback from 3-1 against a 1-man team.

I always love the "pre-season favourite" thing. Truly shows that FG has nfi how odds works.

He then proved it when trying to do simple math with odds.

If you had of placed money on LeBron every season he was pre-season favourite you would have had a very good return.

This means LeBron has out-performed his expectations when pre-season favourite.

This is a case for LeBron.

FG using it as something against LeBron shows how bad his case is.

Betting on preseason favorites is profitable for pretty much any top 10 all-time candidate... It means nothing and has nothing to do with the points I made.

Preseason favorites are used as a talking point because it shows how Lebron massively underachieves favored talent compared to his peers (not compared to all players in history like your analysis shows).

When Curry, Duncan, Kobe or Jordan have the best team on-paper/preseason favorite, they never crap the regular season and fall to Finals underdog like Lebron does.. Lebron fell to underdog because he won 60 games once in 15 seasons with the best talent in the league, such as 8 preseason favorites and 6 franchise player teammates (Wade/Bosh/Kyrie/Love/AD/Luka).. Since the talent is initially favored, the fall to weak team and underdog is due to the bad chemistry of Lebron's skillset, i.e. turning everyone into spot-up shooter.

In addition to a horrific record with favored talent compared to his peers, Lebron never won WITHOUT favored talent/preseason favorite like Curry (15', 22'), MJ (91'), Kobe (09'), and Duncan (99', 07', 14').

So putting money on Lebron's teams in the preseason is a massive loser to his peers, who won every time with preseason favorite, or won as the underdog (not preseason favorite)..

Ultimately, Lebron doesn't have a winning record with good teams, such as preseason favorites (4-4), Finals teams (4-6), all-star teammates (4-8), and 1 or 2 seeds (4-5)... This horrific record compared to his PEERS is why people view Lebron as a "loser", while his worst-ever turnover rate in clutch-time or efficiency gives him a "choker" label.. In addition to loser and choker, Lebron is considered a flopper, colluder, load manager and massive whiner.

I say steal the balls from others , I means from his teammates, not the stars or stealing the balls.

And again I didn’t mention anything about mj .
U blame LeBron on both side .
There is no way LeBron can do good is any situation for you .
Reread again my comment and maybe you will get it .

The definition of a franchise players for FG .

First 2 years , he was not the lead man but ok :
33-49
33-49

Then 27-55
47-35
41-41
33-49
40-42

Love :
First 2 ok not the leader :
24-58
15-67

Then 17-65
26-40
31-51
40-42

Bosh is debatable, Bosh had 1 great year but I don’t see him win a title has the number 1 option but w.e
Love certainly not .

Yeah they have good personal stats because they play the most shrug .
(Something u always bring up with lebron but not for them o0)

But isn’t a surprise they end up option 3 in Lebron team .
They couldn’t do nothing has a leading man .
All it shows it actually they play in team that actually miss a franchise player with such bad record …

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2008 2nd Round

Lebron...... 26 on 35%... 5 TO's

^^^^ this was a 7-game series, aka winnable series, aka massive choke-job by Lebron

Winning the title or even having a good season isn't the criteria for being a franchise player.

Lebron was lottery 4 times, so does that mean he wasn't a franchise player in those years?.. Curry, Giannis, Jokic and KD were lottery for many years.

Lebron only won 45 games in 2008 and then had historic choke in the playoffs (above) - so does that make him not a franchise player??

Overall, Lebron was a 2nd Round loser or lottery 5 times from 04' to 10', and also lost as an OKC-level favorite in 09' against a 1-man team.. So Lebron was garbage until he teamed up with opponents and put the top 3 PER's on 1 team.

Franchise player = elite producer + has his own team

The Heat were called a "big 3 super-team" by EVERYONE ("not 5, not 6"), so you're just trying to change history now that everyone looks back and sees that the Heat underachieved

Bosh was far superior to Pau, and that's one of the main reasons that people know Kobe was superior, i.e. he had far better teams even though his 2nd option was worse than Lebron's 3rd option.. So stop the revisionist history regarding Bosh, which you learned from Rich Paul - Paul's BS and excuse-making had Pat McFee in shock.

Bosh's 2nd option in 2008 was Anthony Parker, yet Bosh was still .500 and made the playoffs!!

Compared to 94' Pippen, prime Bosh had far better scoring, efficiency, spacing/shooting, rebounding, blocks, PER, WS/48, OBPM, clutch, 1-on-1 ability, aka go-to player

There's no comparison, so Lebron had better 3rd option with Bosh than Kobe had with Pau, and it's easily arguable that Bosh was better than a system bricklayer or choker like Pippen.. Pippen's highlights are all transition and dunks, while Bosh's highlights have iso brilliance, shooting, many clutch buzzer-beaters, era-changing PNR defense... and better dunks

Oh and imagine how Bosh would look next to MJ, who made Pippen.. according to.... everyone

A lineup of MJ and Bosh equals 8 straight titles because a real go-to player like Bosh would take a lot of pressure off MJ.. Heck, it's a low bar to match Pippen's production, so guys like 3rd year Horry already played better in the 95' Finals with higher gamescore than all 6 of Pippen's Finals.. You could've replaced Pippen with Horry (and then upgrade Paxson to Kenny Smith or Derek Harper).. There's many ways to skin a cat when we're trying to replace a bum like Pippen

Did Jordan ever play with his son in the NBA?
Or were his sons so entitled that they couldn't make it to the league?

Toronto then missed the playoffs for the following two seasons while Bosh was there.

Back to 2008... When you say 500. They were exactly that 41-41. Toronto wasn't actually too bad that year. I'd argue Calderón was the number 2 (15th in the league in VORP & WSs - both higher than Bosh). But I know you sort by PPG like an amateur. He was very good that year.

Bosh obviously choked massively in the playoffs that year.

Another reason they made the playoffs was obvious due to how bad the East was. And the fact he couldn't get his team to the playoffs the following two years is testament that Bosh, while a very good player, wasn't really a winner.

FG - What's your all time Top 10 again?