GOAT NBA Discussion: Biggest fraud poster: fallguy. Super AIDS Containment thread
Have you ever seen Jordan play in person or YouTube?
He had the most beautiful form ever, while Draymond isn't even a jumpshooter..
Draymond has about 20 series where he shot under 30% at 3+ attempts, while MJ never shot poorly at 3+ attempts..
Anytime Jordan wanted to shoot threes, he shot well.
Ultimately, saying that Jordan's three-ball threat is like Draymond's is the dumbest thing itt.
If Jordan was challenged to shoot 40% on 6 attempts, he would EASILY DO IT.. You guys would lose all your money if you bet against this.. Jordan had perfect form and became the goat 2-point jumpshooter, while shooting 36-43% on threes whenever he had volume, with no practice
Again, Jordan already had a winning playoff run with 39% on 4 attempts in 93', so that's better than SGA this season, or Kawhi in 2019 - both were actually mid-range kings like Jordan, so Jordan would be a rich man's version of Kawhi or SGA in today's game.. Most people agree that he would average 40-45 ppg
Jordan led the Bulls in 3-point attempts and percentage in the 91-93' Playoffs.
He was literally his team's leader in threes.
Draymond can't do that and has 20 series of shooting poorly at 3+ attempts, compared to zero for Jordan - when Jordan decided to shoot threes, he always shot well.
Furthermore, it speaks to Jordan's goat basketball instinct and skill that he naturally increased his 3-point volume against the most potent offenses - this would be the 92' and 93' Finals - Jordan had to shoot threes (modern offense) to keep up and keep his team in it.. Again, he did this naturally - it wasn't the game plan to shoot threes - it's just what was needed to keep up with the opponent's superior offensive talent.
I was there. I'm old.
With the exception of the Warriors, I've watched more Jordan games in full than any other player.
The irony is you think you're qualified to comment on today's game without watching it.
If Jordan was challenged to shoot 40% on 6 attempts, he would EASILY DO IT.. You guys would lose all your money if you bet against this.. Jordan had perfect form and became the goat 2-point jumpshooter, while shooting 36-43% on threes whenever he had volume, with no practice
You are so delusional. Why didn't he do it then? Do you know how unstoppable his drives would be if people thought he was so dangerous from 3? He would have been unstoppable. Scoring 40 a game. I thought he had high bball IQ.
Sample size.
He also shot 19% on 3.5 shots per game in 98.
Btw, the top 5 scorers today are 1-way players that play 60-70 games and about 6 back-to-backs, while MJ played 82 games as a 2-way player and 25 back-to-backs when he averaged 37 in 87'... Let these amazing facts sink in - today's player is a joke compared to prior eras -
It's not that players in the past played more minutes and game's per season because they were super humans. It's that they could do so because the game was much easier so they could do it.
Jordan was obviously a wimp anyways compared to Chamberlain who used to play 48 minutes every single game, so by your argument the players of his ERA must've been the true greats. So let's just rank our GOATs with Russell and Chamberlain and those guys filling up the top ten.
I was there. I'm old.
With the exception of the Warriors, I've watched more Jordan games in full than any other player.
Then you know it was all about MJ, and Pippen was the lucky, secondary-producing lackey that was lucky to be there, and benefitted massively by being there.
The media awards mean nothing, while the compliments about his defense are designed to offset a deficit of compliments about his offense, or outright trashing of it.. i.e. some form of compliment is often required by fellow pros, and the defensive end is the only option for Pippen.. (fellow players that guarded him knew he couldn't score, aka system player - nothing to worry about).
Accordingly, history shows that 2nd options need a goat-level dude to carry them to titles and dynasties, yet Lebron fans claim it's the other way around - "no, it's the SECOND option that is key"...... lol
The irony is you think you're qualified to comment on today's game without watching it.
It's because I use the stats to make the arguments, while you use media awards and political speak/charity about defense by fellow pros.
Even the argument about dynasties and dominant title runs is based in stats, namely the assisted rate stat, aka the statistical catalyst in defining a primary ballhandler, or differentiating them from the winning skillsets (bigs & jumpshooters).
I was once paid to analyze and interpret numbers, so that's what I do with today's players and league.. Assuming that you know what to look for, it's more efficient than watching the whole season.
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Ty Lue (paraphrased):
"Back then, we played a game and the next day we had a 2 hour full practice.. But today, it's a walk-through the day after games - no practice - it's a MASSIVE difference" (15 seconds in):
https://x.com/ClutchPoints/status/196124...
It's not that players in the past played more minutes and game's per season because they were super humans. It's that they could do so because the game was much easier so they could do it.
Superior athletes should be capable of playing MORE, and handling MORE, not less.
So you have it backwards.. Today's players aren't as strong, sturdy, or tough, so they can't play as many games as previous eras, and they don't even PRACTICE the day after games (see Tyron Lue above) - are you saying the game is too tough to practice?.. They only play half the season in many cases with 1/5th of the back-to-backs as previous eras, and no practice!!..
Accordingly, there's no case to be made to for today's players - they're just soft.
Jordan was obviously a wimp anyways compared to Chamberlain who used to play 48 minutes every single game, so by your argument the players of his ERA must've been the true greats. So let's just rank our GOATs with Russell and Chamberlain and those guys filling up the top ten.
The goal in every era was to play 82 games, except this era, where load management is the standard - it was so bad that a minimum game requirement as instituted for various media awards.
Today's softies don't even PRACTICE the day after games, and they only play half the season in many cases with 1/5th of the back-to-backs as previous eras..
Again, no comparison
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3-POINT EFFICIENCY FOR REGULAR SEASON GAMES WHERE MJ HAD 3+ ATTEMPTS:
1985...... 4-18
1986...... 3-6
1987...... 5-22
1988...... 1-3
1989...... 16-49
1990...... 75-187
1991...... 11-30
1992...... 13-39
1993...... 68-185
__________________________
total....... 196-539 (36.4%)
3-POINT EFFICIENCY FOR PLAYOFF SERIES WITH 3+ ATTEMPTS - regular line only (HIGHLIGHTED BELOW):
53-135 (39.2%)
TLDR: From 85-93', Jordan shot 36.4% on threes in games that he had 3+ attempts (539 attempts), and 39% in series with 3+ attempts (regular line only) - aka there's no record of MJ shooting poorly at today's volumes, or whenever he had above "bailout" volume (extremely low volume - only bailouts taken)... Since MJ always shot well at today's volumes despite no practice (36-39%), he would be elite in today's game WITH practice (40% or more).
He did when he needed to, such as the 92' Finals with 5 attempts on 43%.
MJ switched to a modern style so that his team could keep up with stacked offenses in the 92' Finals, 93' Finals, or 93' Playoffs in general.. It wasn't the gameplan though - his game adjusted naturally.
But heck, if I told you that rookie Jordan would become the goat 2-point jumpshooter, you wouldn't believe me either..
^^^ this shows that you didn't actually watch "Air" Jordan, regardless of how old you are, since Jordan's drives were already unstoppable
aka 37 ppg.... or 41 ppg in the 93' Finals... or 36/7/8 in the 91-93' Finals... or 34/7/7 in the 85-93' Playoffs.
Btw, his goat 2-point jumpshot already opened up his drives, so defenders dare not guard his 3ball
You mean 97', so the shortened line.. The only thing that matters is how Jordan shot from the regular line, and he always shot well when he had 3+ attempts in a playoff series or regular season.. It's a huge sample size (previous post)..
Specifically, from 85-93', Jordan shot 36.4% on threes in games that he had 3+ attempts (539 attempts), and 39% in series with 3+ attempts (regular line only) - aka there's no record of MJ shooting poorly at today's volumes... Since MJ always shot well at today's volumes despite no practice (36-39%), he would be elite in today's game WITH practice (40% or more).
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"Back then, we played a game and the next day we had a 2 hour full practice.. But today, it's a walk-through the day after games - no practice - it's a MASSIVE difference" (15 seconds in):
The goal in every era was to play 82 games, except this era, where load management is the standard - it was so bad that a minimum game requirement as instituted for various media awards.n
The goal is to make a ton of money and to win championships. If players could practice for 2 hours the day after a game that's mostly just evidence that the game was easy.
How come every physical sport has records continually broken, and standards of the past aren't competitive today? Because athletes today are the best they've ever been. If you don't understand that you're just thinking about things wrong.
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The goal in every era was to play 82 games, except this era, where load management is the standard - it was so bad that a minimum game requirement as instituted for various media awards.
Today's softies don't even PRACTICE the day after games, and they only play half the season in many cases with 1/5th of the back-to-backs as previous eras..
Again, no comparison
The goal in every era was to win. They've worked out a better way to do it. they worked out what they did in the 90s was dumb. Dumb basketball.
This is how data selection you can prove anything. This is standard FG.
FG - He did when he needed to, such as the 92' Finals with 5 attempts on 43%.
Actual facts - You can't take small sample sizes for stats. For instance if you only look at the last 5 and a half games of that series MJ shot 31% from 3. Conclusion - MJ is a terrible 3 point shooter.
Anyway everyone agrees that MJ would shoot around 35-39% from 3 in today's game. He'd basically be James Harden.
We also looked it up and found that LeBron shoots something like 46% on 3's if you only count games where he took 10 attempts or more, and it's a sample of like 150 games or something so it's actually a lot of shots. In other words, players shoot 3's more when they're hitting them. For obvious reasons.
The reason that the vast majority of these guys started playing basketball is because they loved to play.. They loved to hoop.
And that's why guys always wanted to play 82 games, or as many games as they could back then - they loved the competition and the game of basketball.. It was quite standard for pros to say that they would play the game for free.
It's different today because it isn't real basketball anymore, so players don't like it as much - they view it as a chore or a job to play the robotic game of 3-point seeking, which removes the randomness from the game - it takes the basketball out of basketball and turns the game into "3ball", aka not as fun, aka a real job.
If players could practice for 2 hours the day after a game that's mostly just evidence that the game was easy.
Or players were much tougher and liked their job a lot more
How come every physical sport has records continually broken, and standards of the past aren't competitive today? Because athletes today are the best they've ever been. If you don't understand that you're just thinking about things wrong.
Tons of records are unbroken... Breaking records is rare.. Javier Sotomayor still holds the high jump record from 1988.. And the improvements in sprint times or other broken records are miniscule amounts by outliers - they don't represent the entire pool of players, or a material improvement that signifies a meaningful change in the game's difficulty..
The goal in every era was to win. They've worked out a better way to do it. they worked out what they did in the 90s was dumb. Dumb basketball.
Curry won 67-73 games from 15-17' by playing 79-80 games each year.
Ditto the 96' Bulls, and all the most winningest teams in history.
So you're just making stuff up
This is how data selection you can prove anything. This is standard FG.
FG - He did when he needed to, such as the 92' Finals with 5 attempts on 43%.
Actual facts - You can't take small sample sizes for stats. For instance if you only look at the last 5 and a half games of that series MJ shot 31% from 3. Conclusion - MJ is a terrible 3 point shooter.
You asked me "why hasn't he done it then?"
So I showed you an instance when he did it.
And I showed that he needed to for that particular series - essentially, he didn't do it regularly because he was unstoppable at the 2-point game/basketball, so he didn't need to play 3ball.
You're acting like he has instances of 3+ attempts and failed/shot poorly from the regular line - he doesn't - he never failed when he had today's volume.. If he wanted to shoot great on threes, he did, because he had goat form and touch.. He was already a great FT shooter and the goat 2-pt shooter, but simply never took threes because he didn't need em'
Again, a poor man's Jordan who can't shoot threes was the 2025 FMVP... And unlike Jordan, SGA has many instances of poor shooting at 3+ attempts.. Lebron does too because these guys aren't pure shooters like Jordan.. KD says that Jordan is a top 5 or 10 jumpshooter all-time
We also looked it up and found that LeBron shoots something like 46% on 3's if you only count games where he took 10 attempts or more, and it's a sample of like 150 games or something so it's actually a lot of shots. In other words, players shoot 3's more when they're hitting them. For obvious reasons.
Curry shoots poorly at 10 attempts all the time, because he takes around 10 attempts per game - so it depends on how many attempts the player normally takes.
And obviously,10 attempts is different from 3 attempts
Jordan always shot well from the regular line at 3+ attempts (regular season or playoff series), while Lebron and SGA shoot poorly at 3+ attempts all the time..
aka you're saying that Jordan wouldn't shoot well at today's volumes, except he always did - there are no examples of him not shooting well at today's volumes
He already did that.
See the data above.
Jordan shot 36-39% during his career when he had today's volumes (3+ attempts).
Since this was with no practice, he would shoot 40% or more with practice and today's focus on the shot.. Unlike SGA or Lebron, Jordan had great shooting form and mechanics, while already being the goat 2-point jumpshooter, so he would be an elite 3-point shooter today
Only if Harden had big man hands plus an inch and a half taller with longer arms and broader shoulders/frame, while being the goat combo leaper and quickest player of all-time..
He would also need to the goat 2-point jumpshooter and Mount Rushmore defender, while being the goat clutch player - the only player whose clutch or game-winner efficiency matches his regular efficiency...
And a Mount Rushmore off-ball player and scorer, while MJ/Kobe are the only guys to win with the pure triangle, aka a theoretical offense that doesn't work in practice without MJ or Kobe
And despite being easily the best team in the regular season they didn't win it every year. Proving that killing yourself in the regular season means nothing.
Ditto the 96' Bulls, and all the most winningest teams in history.
So you're just making stuff up
If it was better for players to push to play every game, teams would be doing it. Players don't want to sit out.
You asked me "why hasn't he done it then?"So I showed you an instance when he did it.And I showed that he needed to for that particular series - essentially, he didn't do it regularly because he was unstoppable at the 2-point game/basketball, so he didn't need to play 3ball.You're acting like he has instances of 3+ attempts and failed/shot poorly from the regular line - he does
You raise no good points. But that series does show about MJ shooting more 3s when he's hot. Do you think MJ shoots 9 3s in the first half of game 1 if he's missing most of them? Or do you think he keeps shooting because he's knocking them down?
Jordan loved the game so much that he retired 3 times by the time he was LeBron's current age. Almost 6 full seasons of not playing. You'd think if you loved basketball so much you might want to play.
And despite being easily the best team in the regular season they didn't win it every year. Proving that killing yourself in the regular season means nothing.
They won it most years, proving you wrong - the Bulls, Spurs, and Warriors have 15 titles combined.
And it isn't about killing yourself in the regular season - it's about playing basketball and not sitting out when you're healthy... It's about not being a soft pussy.. Leave that to the women.
If it was better for players to push to play every game, teams would be doing it. Players don't want to sit out.
It clearly is, since all the best teams did that.
basically, you're making stuff up to fit your narrative, and it falls apart upon a shred of scrutiny.
Jordan loved the game so much that he retired 3 times by the time he was LeBron's current age. Almost 6 full seasons of not playing. You'd think if you loved basketball so much you might want to play.
MJ retired for other reasons each time.. But he showed his love of the game by playing 82 games 9 times, and he still went hard in pick-up ball after retirement - there's plenty of video.
But the biggest way that Jordan showed love and respect for the game was by building championship chemistry and a champion from scratch instead of skipping the chemistry-development stages and hand-picking favored rosters instead.. One guy did it naturally, while the other guy used a cheat code (and actual steroids too).
Jordan also developed many teammates from low producer to meaningful producer on his watch, while Lebron never developed young players - his teammates were always good before joining him and they always played better without him.. Lebron can't develop young guys because his skillset turns everyone into spot--up shooter.. This is why he needs ready-made stars and can't win organically
So again, guys tried to play 82 games in previous eras because they loved the competition and the game of basketball.. It was quite standard for pros to say that they would play for free.
It's different today because it isn't real basketball anymore, so players don't like it as much - the robotic game of 3-point seeking is viewed as a chore or a job - the 3-point contest removes the randomness from the game - it takes the basketball out of basketball and turns the game into "3ball", aka not as fun, aka a real job.
You raise no good points. But that series does show about MJ shooting more 3s when he's hot. Do you think MJ shoots 9 3s in the first half of game 1 if he's missing most of them? Or do you think he keeps shooting because he's knocking them down?
Unlike Lebron and other bad shooters, MJ would never have a material stretch like a season or series where he shoots poorly at high volume because he's a great shooter.. He might have an off-game here and there just like Curry occasionally shoots 2-13 or something, but it averages out in the end with the hot stretches, which are frequent for great shooters like MJ or Curry... That's how averages and shooting works.
MJ shot 39% on 4 attempts for the entire 93' Playoffs and Finals - this wasn't planned - his game naturally adjusted to a modern style so his team could keep up with high-powered opponents.. He did this in the 92' Finals as well.. Otherwise, his 2-point game was always enough to keep his team in it (a rich man's SGA with elite off-ball).
Everyone says Bird is a great shooter, but Bird shot 35% on 2 attempts during the 80-88' Playoffs, compared to the same for Jordan from 85-93'.. Both were great shooters, but it was a different time where no one took a lot of threes and the shot was considered a gimmick more than a strategy.. Jordan literally said "I don't want to be good at threes"
