GOAT NBA Discussion: Biggest fraud poster: fallguy. Super AIDS Containment thread
LeBron also was 100x more dedicated to his craft than Jordan.
Jordan with his Miller Lites and all night gambling is like something we expect of a Babe Ruth type relic athlete. Jordan in his 30's was nothing like the athlete he was in his 20's. LeBron kept his athleticism much longer because he wanted to and made the effort.
fyi - NO ONE in the 90's said that Jordan couldn't win without Pippen - that's a 100% new narrative created by new fans and media..
In the 90's, MJ and Pippen were voted on for media awards like a joint ticket, but everyone knew that Jordan "made", molded and carried Pippen - Pippen would be "just another guy" without Jordan.. This is common knowledge and agreed upon by all coaches, all players, and Pippen himself.. Everyone knew that Jordan would need about 18 ppg from a sidekick to win, and Pippen just happened to be the guy.. Unlike Woodridge, who only got 1 year with rookie Jordan, Pippen landed alongside the MJ entering his prime, and got a tenure alongside him.
Without MJ, Pippen would be like Horace's brother Harvey - aka largely unknown - and Pippen couldn't score outside of automatic triangle points, so he never gets anywhere near 20 ppg outside the triangle.. He would be like he was in Houston - aka nothing and worse than prime Jeff Green.
Guys like Jalen Williams single-handedly win Finals games by dropping 40 points in the 25' Finals, or Kyrie in the 17' Finals, or AD in the 2020 Finals... PIPPEN IS NOWHERE NEAR THIS CALIBER AND NEVER TOOK OVER.. EVER.. Pippen's level of production and "dominance" was on the level of Shawn Marion, but the unprecedented winning spotlight inflated him to all-time status and media accolade.
uh oh. this thread one needs to be careful. draw you in. take over yr mind...well that was back in the day im older now...i can handle it...i can handle it. one post. cmon anatta. it's free. ok...so think about babe ruth in the 20's like old videos of that slow run into the ball softball leg kick and that huge heavy bat. he had seasons where he'd hit more dingers than ot
Jordan already won a title with 39% threes on 4 attempts in 93', so that's better than SGA this season, or Kawhi in 2019 - both were actually mid-range kings like Jordan, so Jordan would be a rich man's version of Kawhi or SGA in today's game.. Most people agree that he would average 40-45 ppg.. It's interesting because the goat mid-range of MJ and SGA allows them to shoot over defenses and be the "closer" or "bailout guy", while Lebron must kick out to teammates and use them as bailout options.
Secondly, we've never cared about a guy shooting 28% on 0.8 attempts per game (no volume).. That's the only reason Jordan's career 3-point percentage is weak, since he always shot at today's standard of 36-43% when he had volume..
Specifically, Jordan took "bailout volume" most years of under 1.5 attempts (forced threes at the end of shot clock) but he had 3+ attempts in 1990 and shot 38%... Furthermore, he shot 36.4% for all regular season games of 3+ attempts from 85-93', and 39% in playoff series with 3+ attempts (regular line only).. Since MJ shot 36-39% with NO practice (just goat form), he would shoot over 40% today WITH practice (and goat form).
So you're comprehensively wrong about Jordan's shooting.. It would be very easy for Jordan to take 5-6 threes per game at 39%, since he was already doing that anytime he had 3+ attempts.. He shot 43% on 5 attempts in the 92' Finals, and 39% on 4 attempts for the 93' Playoffs and Finals.
So Jordan had the three-point shooting to play today, while Lebron lacks the mid-range to shoot over the packed paints of the 80's and 90's - great mid-range was REQUIRED to be a top scorer back then.. This goes for all positions - even the centers like Robinson, Hakeem and Ewing had great mid-range.. Since Lebron lacks the mid-range, he would be a passive facilitator back then like Magic or Kidd (18-24 ppg).
Btw, it's been confirmed that today's NBA is much weaker because the biggest component of the league (American players) are far worse than previous eras.. The best American players are Ant and Ja, which is a joke compared to Shaq, MJ, Robinson, Malone, Barkley etc... If the biggest component of the league is weaker (American players), then the league is weaker.. Ant is actually below KJ in every area, so the quality of American players fell from MJ to KJ.
LeBron also was 100x more dedicated to his craft than Jordan.
Jordan with his Miller Lites and all night gambling is like something we expect of a Babe Ruth type relic athlete. Jordan in his 30's was nothing like the athlete he was in his 20's. LeBron kept his athleticism much longer because he wanted to and made the effort.
Lebron is dedicated to teaming up with opponents and opposing franchise players to manufacture titles.
He lacks the dedication, perseverance, and hard work required to build great chemistry, as required for dynasties, or winning with "normal" rosters of 1 franchise player.. In short, Lebron is a quitter
aka LeCheatCode James.. He hand-picked 6 straight preseason favorites from 11' to 16', while Jordan had to EARN preseason favorite status by proving he could win with an underdog.. Ditto Curry, Duncan and Kobe
Maybe MJ should have shoot less so Pippen could get more shot attempts. But MJ's ego wouldn't let him. Even if it meant he'd win more.
92' Pippen..... 21.0 ppg... 7.0 apg
94' Pippen..... 22.0 ppg... 5.6 apg
It was proven in 94' and 95' that Pippen played to full capacity next to Jordan - he averaged less PPG + APG than his highs alongside Jordan, and otherwise was always within 5-10% of his career highs alongside Jordan.
Jordan's off-ball game put the ball in Pippen's hands so he could develop, while Lebron's skillset puts guys in the corner and reduces them to spot-up role (Ingram, Hughes, Pippen, Westbrook, etc).. Lebron was gifted many "pippens" but lacked the skills to develop or fit with them.. Zero players grew from low producer to meaningful producer on Lebron's watch because he turns everyone into spot-up shooter.
maybe you're right on the 3's, jordan was better than I remember at 32.7% career. he'd be ok at it in today's game. like brown for the c's maybe. not a shooter but fine. he'd work on it, get more shots like you say, and of course, the offense is geared toward getting open looks so he'd have more of those.
Still think he'd have much more trouble every night being on the court with all the long elite athletes, guys drafted for the wing defensive abilities or rim protection. back then, guys like jahil okafor and enis kanter would be 30 point 15 reb dudes and all-stars. now they can't even play.
and the fact the offense is much more of a team game, ball movement game, shoot the corner 3...it's a way different game. lebron can do it at 40. when jordan was in his age 38, 39 years he shot 25% from 3. Lebron is a top player. Jordan was washed as a younger dude in a weaker era.
If you had to have a player for his whole career, no way you take MJ a guy who could only win 6 conference championships in his whole career, who need years long breaks, over Lebron who'll be as good as Al Hortford was recently... at 50.
See...gettin sucked in by this thread already! lucky for me going all the way to China with the wife for a long trip. hopefully i wont see you boys when i get back this jordan lebron stuff man bad news for my mind!
FG "No one thought Pippen was good in the 90s"
Well except for all the media who continually gave him awards. Even when MJ was retired.
And the fans. Who kept voting him in as an all star
And the players. Who fired out the compliments.
FG - You got to be smart to the Falk brainwashing re-writing history bullshit.
maybe you're right on the 3's, jordan was better than I remember at 32.7% career. he'd be ok at it in today's game. like brown for the c's maybe. not a shooter but fine. he'd work on it, get more shots like you say, and of course, the offense is geared toward getting open looks so he'd have more of those.
That makes no sense .
Little steph gets easily to the rim but mj wouldn’t ?
You got your story upside down .
Lebron's list of fake/undeserving awards:
2020 FMVP
2023 Bubble MVP
Olympic MVP
^^^ you misquoted me - I said:
no one in the 90's said that Jordan couldn't win without Pippen - that's a 100% new narrative created by new fans and media..
Ultimately, Pippen was almost traded 3 times.
Well except for all the media who continually gave him awards. Even when MJ was retired.
And the fans. Who kept voting him in as an all star
^^^ only after winning titles, aka winning spotlight... Career 2nd options can't be seen as All-NBA without winning spotlight, aka titles.
History shows that unlike 1st options, 2nd options can't make All-NBA with mediocre or losing teams, which means their secondary production must be carried to great records and the title before they start making All-NBA (Pippen, Klay, Pau, Jalen Williams, Manu, Parker, Dumars, Worthy, Siakam, etc, etc)..
In addition to needing good teams and winning spotlight to get All-NBA, these 2nd options wouldn't develop into the same players without a generational offensive player to follow like Curry or MJ - notice how Klay and Pippen play like Curry and Jordan.
Ultimately, Pippen and Klay simply got on the right trajectory/timing with a peaking 1st option to carry them to titles, similar to Siakam - All-NBA was imminent after that.
They compliment Pippen on his defense and ring count.. That's it.. And the defense is overplayed and overrated because people couldn't compliment his offense, so his defense became the standard talking point.
Furthermore, there are more instances of Pippen being called a bum by fellow players or media, such as Shaq, Reggie Miller, Robert Horry, Barkley, or the entire Rockets team and front office... It's also the consensus among all players, coaches and media that Jordan made Pippen.
I don't re-write history - I point it out, such as 07' Dirk and 09' Lebron getting credit for 1-man carry-jobs despite having much higher-producing sidekicks than 16' Klay.. aka Curry's carry-job was greater, which is why he was the 1st-ever unanimous MVP..
Unfortunately, people use the term "73 win team", which implies "stacked", thereby robbing Curry of the carry-job.. Regardless, the historical record will always show that Lebron's preseason favorite and "big 3" beat an injured 1-man team in the 2016 Finals..
Meanwhile, Kyrie's domination of the injured Curry is like Siakam dominating SGA (unlosable situation).. The only reason it was close is because Lebron choked for the first 4 games to get a 1-3 deficit (24 and 6 TO's), thereby requiring teammate and league bailouts to survive..
maybe you're right on the 3's, jordan was better than I remember at 32.7% career. he'd be ok at it in today's game.
like brown for the c's maybe.
again, MJ's career percentage is mostly seasons of no volume - his percentage means nothing at 0.8 attempts (bailout threes)... anytime he decided to shoot threes, he shot at today's standard (36-43%)... This is with zero practice, aka goat form and talent
secondly, if you think Jordan's jumper compared to Jaylen Brown, then you know nothing.. Jordan had goat form, while being the goat 2-point jumpshooter and 36-43% three-point shooter with zero practice.
Still think he'd have much more trouble every night
being on the court with all the long elite athletes and guys drafted for rim protection
The average height was 1 inch taller in the 90's, so players were taller and longer, while the rim protection was far superior.
And if Luka and Jokic can get to the rim at will and have 30 PER, then MJ will average 40-50 just like everyone says he would.
Again, all the best players like Luka, Giannis and Jokic say today's NBA is a joke and much easier to score than international game.
and the fact the offense is much more of a team game, ball movement game, shoot the corner 3...
^^^ there's no ball movement in today's game because it's drive-and-kick ball-domination and then a kickout, aka hands-off, open paint beginner-ball... everyone says that Jordan would average 40-45 ppg in today's mickey mouse format.
And all the best players like Giannis, Jokic and Luka say that today's NBA is creampuff and much easier to score than international game.. So that's the proof - I'll believe them over you thx... I'll also believe my eyes seeing the open paint and no physicality.. The neat, open spacing looks more like a dance routine or marching band setup than a basketball setup.
If you had to have a player for his whole career, no way you take MJ a guy who could only win 6 conference championships in his whole career
Lebron has a lottery record against Finals teams (22-33), so who cares about conference championships that he manufactured by putting the top 3 players in the conference on 1 team?!... lol what a joke he is.. not top 10
Lebron's skillset produces bad chemistry, so he would have zero championships without teaming up with opposing franchise players - he never won with "normal" rosters of 1 franchise player..
I'm surprised you didn't list his play-in tournament MVP. He just has too many MVPs it's hard to remember them all.
You have to factor in he had a lot of attempts from the Mickey mouse 3 point line. And his 3 numbers shriveled as soon as they moved it back.
97' MJ..... 3.6 attempts <---- actually trying to shoot 3's
98' MJ..... 1.5 attempts <---- bailout volume
Even Curry would shoot poorly if he basically avoided threes and only took 1 forced three at the end of the shot clock per game (bailout volume).. MJ's career shows that he took bailout volume most seasons (1.5 attempts or less), or he was clearly trying to shoot threes (3+ attempts).. There was nothing in between..
So when MJ wanted to shoot threes (3+ attempts), he always shot well, such as 36.4% in regular season games of 3+ attempts from 85-93', or 39% in series of 3+ attempts (regular line only).. He basically never shot poorly at higher volumes, while Lebron does all the time - Lebron has many seasons and series of crappy shooting at 3+ attempts (regular line of course), while MJ has none (edit: 90' ECF).
Btw, Jordan already had a winning playoff run with 39% threes on 4 attempts in 93', so that's better than SGA this season, or Kawhi in 2019 - both were actually mid-range kings like Jordan, so Jordan would be a rich man's version of Kawhi or SGA in today's game.. Most people agree that he would average 40-45 ppg.. It's interesting because the goat mid-range of MJ and SGA allows them to shoot over defenses and be the "closer" or "bailout guy", while Lebron must kick out to teammates and use them as bailout options.
Booker > Lebron.
Fox > Lebron
Tons of guys
#8 lmao
Btw, Booker/Luka would be unstoppable, kind of like an old and mini-Luka (CP3) went to the Finals in 21' with Book
Yeah he suddenly shot less 3's and at lower percentage when they moved the line back hard to figure out how those things are connected.
I mis-quoted you?
That's from one quote. I'd be shocked if you didn't say Pippen was useless in 50+ posts.
The fact is you are wrong.
People in the 90s thought Pippen was awesome. Because he was. It's made up (by you) that he wasn't.
Its' been a while since "MJ can shoot 3s" thing.
FG always forgets to mention that ever shot MJ takes from 3 is wide open. Go watch his 6 threes in a half versus the Blazers. Literally warm up 3s. In the NBA Finals. Yes, defense was that bad in the 90s.
From 3 Jordan was about as dangerous as Draymond Green.
I mis-quoted you?
That's from one quote. I'd be shocked if you didn't say Pippen was useless in 50+ posts.
The fact is you are wrong.
People in the 90s thought Pippen was awesome. Because he was. It's made up (by you) that he wasn't.
You weren't there and have no idea what people were saying back then... You're just going off media accolade, which is based on winning spotlight for 2nd options - this is the historical record, so it's a meaningless false argument.. Ultimately, the opinion of Rachel Nichols and Skip Bayless has no business in any basketball debate and it makes MY case that this is the only argument you have.
And you're grossly overestimating the mandatory political speak from fellow pros about Pippen's defense - there are far more examples of players trashing him as a non-factor and carried by Jordan (and virtually zero compliments about his offense).. Pippen was a secondary producer like Klay, but new fans revise history and pretend he was a top guy like Robinson, Hakeem or Barkley - that's 100% false and no one would think MJ is goat if he won 6 with Hakeem or Robinson - they think he's goat because he won 6 with a secondary producer and Pippen/Klay-level player.
So again, no one respected or feared Pippen in the 90's, which is why opponents stayed out all night before playing the 94' Bulls and coaches allowed it - this is 100% confirmation of what I'm saying about Pippen - he wasn't respected by opposing players, defenses, or coaches.
And again, you misquoted me by conflating "largely unknown" and "just another guy" with "not good".. You keep changing what I said.. Shawn Marion and Larry Nance are "good" but unknown to many casual fans.. This was Pippen's caliber - no one would know who he was if he wasn't carried to 6 titles, while everyone would say Nance or Marion were all-time players if they got carried to 6.. Pippen would be like Harvey Grant and unknown if he never played with Jordan.. Virtually everyone (including Pippen) agrees and says that Jordan made Pippen.
So you're comprehensively wrong because again... you weren't there.... You're simply going off meaningless media awards (that meant nothing back then and mean nothing for 2nd options) that you discovered 30 years after the fact..
The only way to prove Pippen was great is to do what we do with other great players - we reference examples of their great performance and domination.. Unfortunately, this doesn't exist for Pippen, so you're forced to rely on media accolade and political speak about his defense.
LUKA:
"I wait 2 seconds until the help defender vacates the paint due to defensive 3 - THEN I DRIVE"
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VqzkIR0Zrm...
Defensive 3 seconds empties the paint and that's if the spacing/three-point shooting hasn't pulled all the defenders out already.
This is why Jokic, Giannis and Luka say the NBA is a joke and easier to score than the international game.
Btw, the top 5 scorers today are 1-way players that play 60-70 games and about 6 back-to-backs, while MJ played 82 games as a 2-way player and 25 back-to-backs when he averaged 37 in 87'... Let these amazing facts sink in - today's player is a joke compared to prior eras - i.e. devolvement is a thing - it exists, and today's 3-point contest, PNR spamming skillsets, and tremendous softness is a prime example.
Its' been a while since "MJ can shoot 3s" thing.
FG always forgets to mention that ever shot MJ takes from 3 is wide open. Go watch his 6 threes in a half versus the Blazers. Literally warm up 3s. In the NBA Finals. Yes, defense was that bad in the 90s.
According to NBA.com, 75% of today's threes are either "open" (4-6 feet from closest defender), or "wide open" (6+ feet).
Today's spacing creates too much ground for defenders to cover, so most threes are open... Otoh, previous eras didn't have the spacing to scramble defenders, so guys like Miller and Majerle had to run around a million screens with a defender attached to them like white on rice.
The reality is that no one elevated higher on jumpshots than MJ, and no shooter (except Bird) had the massive hands to control the release.. So Jordan was better equipped to take contested threes than anyone, which is why there's endless footage of him making contested threes - literally hang-time double-clutchers or fadeaways that Curry could never hit.
Again, anytime he wanted to shoot threes (3+ attempts), he shot well.. And Jordan already had a winning playoff run with 39% threes on 4 attempts in 93', so that's better than SGA this season, or Kawhi in 2019 - both were actually mid-range kings like Jordan, so Jordan would be a rich man's version of Kawhi or SGA in today's game.. Most people agree that he would average 40-45 ppg
