GOAT NBA Discussion: Biggest fraud poster: fallguy. Super AIDS Containment thread

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First of all, the 15' Warriors were a 1-man team with a sidekick that produced less than Hornacek or 09' Mo... The team was carried by Curry, otherwise there was nothing special about their roster, hence the +2800 preseason odds and "came out of nowhere" status in 2015.

Secondly, this 1-man team nearly lost to the Cavs even though the Lebron played at an Iverson caliber (inefficient chucking and no defense)..

Thirdly, guys like Eddie Jones, Kobe and Van Exel were all-stars in 1998 and extremely athletic guards that were DESTROYED by Stockton and Hornacek.

So the Jazz destroyed superior guard talent than Curry/Klay, especially since Curry was hurt in the 16' Finals.. This means that Stockton would eat him alive.

Remember that Stockton cooks everyone, especially the first time he faces them, and this includes 40-year Stockton cooking Arenas, Baron Davis and many more.

Flaws in Jokic's offensive game have been exposed.

He generally needs 10 assists to get 30 points, and this is because he threatens the pass in order to score... Essentially, he frequently lacks the quickness or moves to overtly take his man, so he leverages his goat passing ability to open up his scoring game..

However, by needing 10 assists to get 30 points, he needs hella touches... In addition to excessive touches, his style of threatening the pass to open up his scoring game is easier to defend, as defenders play halfway - this crap doesn't work against guys like Kobe or MJ, since they will easily pop the jumper for 50 points if their defender (or the help defenders) sag off.

Since Jokic has been exposed as not having elite scoring ability, he's out of my top 10 and replaced by Hakeem..

Btw, Jokic's career further supports the fact that having a high assist player (usually a primary ballhandler) average 25+ is suboptimal - indeed, primary ballhandlers have never been 1st option for the best basketball (dynasty or dominant title run).

Got it. Hakeem would have been much worse if he was a better passer.

Yes, 19 year old Kobe (15/3/2) and Van Excel, Jones were just as good as peak Curry/Thompson.

Man, I forgot how terrible Kobe was in those playoffs

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Lebron won 66 with Mo, and then Curry carried a LOWER PRODUCER to 73 wins:

09' MO......... 2.3 BPM... 0.165 WS.48... 3.1 VORP... 17.2 PER
16' KLAY...... 1.8 BPM... 0.144 WS/48... 2.5 VORP... 18.6 PER

Curry produced a dynasty with a lower producer than Hornacek:

Regular Season

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hornaje01.html

Basketball-Reference.com

Jeff Hornacek Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Draft Status and more | Basketball-Reference.com

.... 17.7 PER.. 2.9 bpm.. 0.153 ws/48.. 42.1 vorp.. 15/3/5 on 58.2 ts

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/thompkl01.html

Basketball-Reference.com

Klay Thompson Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Draft Status and more | Basketball-Reference.com

'............. 16.4 PER.. 0.7 bpm.. 0.110 ws/48.. 14.4 vorp.. 19/3/2 on 57.5 ts


Playoffs

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hornaje01.html

Basketball-Reference.com

Jeff Hornacek Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Draft Status and more | Basketball-Reference.com

.... 16.5 PER.. 3.1 bpm.. 0.145 ws/48.. 14.1 vorp.. 15/4/4 on 57.5 ts

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/thompkl01.html

Basketball-Reference.com

Klay Thompson Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Draft Status and more | Basketball-Reference.com

'............. 14.4 PER.. 0.7 bpm.. 0.091 ws/48.... 3.1 vorp.. 19/3/2 on 56.0 ts

^^^ The Curry Warriors were a 1-man team with +2800 preseason odds in 2015, so there's never been a bigger "nothing" roster that shocked the league...

And Klay was obviously massively overrated and simply inflated by the winning spotlight, similar to Pippen.
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Most people think prime Shaq > Curry (and it's close either way), while the Lakers had 3 guys that were better than Klay (Kobe, Eddie Jones, Van Exel), plus winning role players like Horry, Fox, and Fisher... The Lakers were more than a 1-man team, while the Warriors were a 1-man team by virtue of having a 2nd option that was much worse than Hornacek and under-produced 09' Mo (stats in previous post above).

Secondly, the Jazz were a 10-year organic juggernaut that nearly beat the 88' Lakers and swept the 98' Lakers (and Popovich/Duncan), while the Warriors were 1st-timers and a top-heavy, 1-man team.. The Jazz beat Hakeem, Duncan and Shaq to make the 98' Finals, yet you think the 1-man Warriors would stop them in 2015, or injured Curry in 16'.. It's absurd.. Again, Curry has POOR MAN'S HORNACEK at sidekick (see previous post).

[QUOTE=fidstar-poker;59297347

]Yes, 19 year old Kobe (15/3/2) and Van Excel, Jones were just as good as peak Curry/Thompson.

[/QUOTE]

19-year Kobe was superior to Klay across the board, including scoring rate, assists, advanced stats, and intangibles:

98' Kobe..... 18.5 PER... 1.4 BPM.. 0.147 WS/48.. 1.8 VORP... 30.1 pts per 100.
18' Klay....... 16.0 PER.. -0.4 BPM.. 0.094 WS/48.. 1.0 VORP... 28.1 pts per 100

In addition to young Kobe being better than prime Klay, Eddie Jones was exactly like Klay except Jones had elite athleticism, and he was All-star and All-defense without the championship spotlight that Klay required.. Klay himself would probably tell you that Eddie Jones was AT LEAST as good as him.

Again, the 98' Lakers were a loaded team with 3 Klay-level players and 1 Curry-level player, and about 3 or 4 Draymonds.. Frontcourts were vastly superior and deeper back then.

Funny you mentioned putting Hakeem at 10. I was gonna make a top 10 list and considered him at 10 as well, as people forget how good he was.

But i feel like you're underestimating Jokic some though. The way this playoffs went i don't feel as strong on Jokic as i did before thinking in the spur of the moment. But know i'm thinking irrationally of what have you done for me lately. Even though his numbers ijn the playoffs and season are still pretty darn good, just not for him. But i really feel he's not 100 percent right now. His 3 has been off like i've never seen it been before. And i like Murray, but the way sometimes he's a great shooter and scorer, then other times he's hurting the team because he's so cold at shooting leaves Jokic no help on Murray's off nights. Then Gordon being hurt i feel like Jokic didin't have alot of help these playoffs. It's like he's a one man team playing injured, and the team can't afford to even give him a rest as they could get blown out at anytime when he's not on the court. Then add in the nuggets bad defense, which i admit his defesne isn't good either, which is another reason i'm looking at him a little lesser than before, but when you got a bad defense he has to play near perfect every night for his team to have a chance. Which prolly has been exhausting for him. He looks really tired at the end of those game even though still playing pretty darn good. That prolly also adds into his 3 shooting being worse too.

I mean there's 10 players better than Jokic? Before i woulda said nah, noway. Now i say maybe it's possible your right. But Jokic is unreal good. I can't find 10 players better and still gonna put him at 2 even though i admit i could have him a little too high. This off the top of my head not, my golden top 10 that i thought hard at so subjuct to fairly big change just throwing out for discussion. I'll prolly totally forget someone(so when you name a big name i didn't add i could agree Fidstar) but just some players i think possibly worthy. The order not gonna say in prefect order other than Jordan at 1 as that's indisputable....

1. Jordan

2. Jokic

3. Bird

4. Duncan

5. Kobe

6. Kareem- not sure where to put him as even though great, he played in an era when he didin't have as much talented big men, compared to the era's of Hakeem, Duncan, Shaq, Garnett, and Jokic had. Kareem only had Wilt near his level as far as big men. So easier for him to dominate as it also was for Wilt. Yeah i'm putting Kareem at 11 and everyone else behind moves up a spot. So Garnett in the 10 spot.

7. Curry

8. Shaq

9. Hakeem

10. Dirk

Honerable mention Garnett at 11. Durant while a great scorer, and better than some on the list at scoring, i can't put him that high becasue he only won when he joined Steph. He's more a guy to put up tons of points but not lead the team. I don't think he ever wanted to be the leader. That's why he fit in perfect with the warriors. He's still great though.

Again 2 thru 10 i'm flexible on possibly switching some spots. Just not the 1 spot.

Whose your top 10 Fallguy? Whose your 2 Kobe?

Left out SGA and Wemby as there career's are still too early. But barring injury, knock on wood, both will prolly be up there someday.

Baby Kobe, Eddie Jones and Van Exel were not better than Klay.

Yeah, good on you for picking Klay's worst year in his prime. You are so disingenuous it's sad.

Anyway, done talking rubbish with you.

JFC at that Top 10.

LeBron really good today. Best player on the court. Maybe Chet has a case.

I am quite surprised how well he has been playing, tbh. He looked a bit doneso during his first ~25 regular-season appearances this year. Genuinely playing top 30 basketball last couple of months, and that's carrying through despite it being the playoffs and him having to carry a bigger load than he did when Luka was there.

It's like you guys don't understand numbers

aka I show you that Klay was a much lower producer than Hornacek, and you still act surprised when I show you that 19-year Kobe exceeds some of Klay's prime years.. smh...

Again, Klay is a lower producer than Hornacek, so ANYONE can supercede him, such as 09' Mo or young Kobe...

Since Klay was a low producing bum that under-produced 09' Mo, Hornacek or young Kobe, we can conclude that the Warriors were a 1-man team

Klay was a much lower producer than Hornacek, or 2009 Mo, and even "benchwarmer" Kobe, so he was a complete bum that needed championship spotlight to get all-star or All-defense.

You're just lying at this point and repeating things with no evidence.

Klay sucked and was completely carried, so the Warriors were a 1-man team.. Or we can just look at the massive statistical gap between Curry and Klay - Klay was actually more carried than Pippen.

Klay is NOWHERE NEAR Kobe, Van Exel or Eddie Jones, but you obviously never watched back then, and we already know that you're clueless about the game and obviously never played.

Lebron is a bigger version of Westbrook because they both have losing styles that nullifies whatever stats are achieved, aka stat-padding or empty stats..

23 years has confirmed that it's like PULLING TEETH to get this guy a title, due to his losing style and skillset (bad chemistry skillset)..

You'll have 2 record losses and a massive sweep for every title that he luckboxes (in a shortened season or teammate bailout).

Westbrook, Harden and Lebron are the only 3 guys in history that routinely lost with high seeds despite seemingly putting up good stats... They simply play losing basketball.

What's your top 10 Fidstar?

Jokic is still in my top 10 at #10.

Everything still stands.

There's no reason to bump him or change anything.

MJ, Kobe, Curry, Bird, Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Duncan, Shaq, Jokic

We know that primary ballhandlers can't produce the best basketball (dynasty or dominant title run) as 1st option, so they can't be in the top 10... It's simply suboptimal and harder to win if the primary ballhandler scores a ton... Accordingly, the top 10 is a subjective mix of the best bigs and jumpshooters ever, and I prefer to put the jumpshooters before the bigs, hence my rankings above

1 more title would move Jokic past Shaq (who was a much worse loser than Jokic - Shaq,was swept for each of the first 7 years of his career - ragdolled by everyone)..

And Kobe actually led the Lakers in scoring for the 01' and 02' Western Playoffs - Jokic never had that kind of help..

I just don't know how to judge Russell, Wilt, and Kareem. They all played in an era where everyone was small. So were they great or just becasue they were much taller than everyone it was impossible not to dominate. So i question if they had the skills of players like Duncan, Shaq, Jokic, Hakeem, and Garnett. I'm sure they were really good, but playing against little and less skilled players made them look like Shaq. But Shaq actually did it against many more highly skilled big people in his era. No disrespect to those guys though. They are legends.

I may have Kobe a little low at 5. I think why i don't put him 2 is because he had Shaq and that was a big advantage others on the list didn't have. But he did win after Shaq too, while Gasol was no joke, he wasn't Shaq. But Kobe was a great winner and leader. And had that Jordan competitive drive to not be denied. Great player. Maybe i should have him higher than Jokic.

It's just Jokic is so effective. The passing, the scoring, the rebounding, and great outlet passes. His defense though is not good. I don't get it. Looks like he doesn't even jump or contend shots when people take it to the rim at him. Maybe he's worried about getting in foul trouble. I don't know. So maybe 2 is too high for him just becasue of that. But besides Jordan i've never seen any player more effective on the offensive side of the ball.

Well said!

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