GOAT NBA Discussion: Biggest fraud poster: fallguy. Super AIDS Containment thread
For reference here's a list of players that average that for their career.
FG - You never told us your thoughts on Jokers failures throughout his career and that he's never beaten a 50 win team.
Bird played many of the greats. But their was only one player he decided to comment on. Bird asked about Jordan putting up 63 in a playoff game vs Bird with jordan's terrible team. He said something like that dude is an alien. Bird knew right away, here comes the goat!
He's commented on lots of players, including...
Bird really said that? Wow. Nice find. Surprising. I bet if we asked him whose better Lebron or Jordan he would say Jordan. Notice he didn't say he was better than jordan. Still surprising. I mean what is he the greatest at? I think he was being kind imo.
Also why were people whining about Lebron? Was it because he wasn't playing good when Bird got asked? Why else would they be whining? When was anyone whining about Jordan? When did he play bad?
Why did players fear Jordan, but not Lebron?
Again what were they whining about? When they lost to the mavericks as big favorites?
Imagine if a coach just let MJ be MJ. Clear out every play for his entire career. He would average 60, maybe 70 a game, and have like how many championships? How many years did he play? That many championships.
My apologies to Jordan. He woulda averaged like 150 a game prolly. Because what was average for a team to score back then 100? Jordan wasn't average so i'll say 150.
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Imagine all the people, imagining what Jordan might do......la la la la la
Bird really said that? Wow. Nice find. Surprising. I bet if we asked him whose better Lebron or Jordan he would say Jordan. Notice he didn't say he was better than jordan. Still surprising. I mean what is he the greatest at? I think he was being kind imo.Also why were people whining about Lebron? Was it because he wasn't playing good when Bird got asked? Why else would they be
Because there's people like you and FG trying to rip LeBron down and say he's terrible, when that's just the dumbest thing ever.
He did say that. Imo he was being kind becasue everyone was criticizing Lebron for failing. So was saying give the guy a break he's a talented player. Btw he also said similar things about Majic. But whether he meant it or not didn't say he was better than jordan. He said he was one of the greatest, and maybe the greatest.
Lebron had a very nice career that's worthy of the hall of fame. But he had more help/talent around him than any other player in history which made him look better. Everyone looks better when you have great players all around you to make things easier. And with all that talent only got 4 championships and 6 finals losses. Also heard Bird say he valued winning more than anything. So that's why i bet he'd say jordan was better. There's alot more past players that rate jordan the best over Lebron.
Again, Lebron had a nice career. But he's no Dirk Nowitzki.
Besides going 6-0 in finals he also won 6 finals mvp's. Pretty good!
Because there's people like you and FG trying to rip LeBron down and say he's terrible, when that's just the dumbest thing ever.
I didn't say he was terrible. In fact i always mention it was a very good career. I just said he's way overrated when some people like you think he was better than the goat Michael Jordan. Which most people feel saying Lebron was better than Jordan is a really bad opinion. Your a good debater, but it's hard to win a debate when your arguing the silliest take of all time. Your love for Lebron clouds your judgement imo. No offense, just sayin. Fun debating you though. You're very creative in trying to change the real history.
Because there's people like you and FG trying to rip LeBron down and say he's terrible, when that's just the dumbest thing ever.
Lebron said it himself that he and Jordan are "totally different players", which means that he can't play in a system like the triangle, or the Spurs or Warriors, aka dynasty-ball.. We already know that primary ballhandlers can't produce the best basketball as 1st option (dynasties or dominant title runs).
Accordingly, compared to Jordan, Lebron is terrible at basketball by virtue of employing a weaker brand of ball that produces vastly weaker teams... It's statistical fact that Lebron reduces teammates' assists and increases their assisted rate (turns everyone into spot-up shooter).. This ball-dominant skillset of imposing spot-up roles fails to develop elite chemistry, and the resulting talent-based approach is why he always needs "more help" and has the neediest teams in history..
He simply plays an inferior WAY that doesn't win nearly as much as Jordan and others.. This includes a lottery record against Finals teams, or barely winning 50 games with preseason favorites (thereby falling to perennial underdog)..
He also loses in the 1st Round with top 5 players as teammates, or his super-teams and preseason favorites lose by record amount.. He routinely gets upset by 1-star teams, and beaten by record amount vs good teams.. He has the goat choke, goat meltdown, and 3 record margin losses on his resume, while being 0-7 on game-winning or tying shots in the Finals.. tldr: Lebron is nothing compared to Jordan
He beat Curry, likely would have in 2015 too if Kyrie and Love weren't out. Jordan never had to win without #2/3 in a series.
Jordan won his titles during huge expansion that watered the league down, 2 of them with the baby 3pt line. Has 1 playoff win in his career without Pippen.
All 6 Bulls title teams - Jordan easily beat the 07 Cavs - Lebron. Same with the hospital 15 Finals team.
Delladova 2nd option was enough for Lebron to get 2 games off a team that is better than any that Jordan faced in the finals.
There's a lot of luck in winning titles, Jordan had some of the best ever, no major injuries in 6 title runs, 2 years off to not have the grind of 8 straight 90+ game seasons, Jordan and Lebron had freakish conditioning but the role players don't and they break down over long seasons over and over.
If Lebron won in 2015, then the Warriors would've retooled a year earlier and won in 2016 instead of 2017.
And 2 decades has shown that Lebron is a 1-hit wonder, except for the Allen miracle.
Lebron won 66 with Mo, and then Curry carried a LOWER PRODUCER to 73 wins:
09' MO......... 2.3 BPM... 0.165 WS.48... 3.1 VORP... 17.2 PER
16' KLAY...... 1.8 BPM... 0.144 WS/48... 2.5 VORP... 18.6 PER
Curry produced a dynasty with a lower producer than Hornacek:
Regular Seasonhttps://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hornaje01.html'.... 17.7 PER.. 2.9 bpm.. 0.153 ws/48.. 42.1 vorp.. 15/3/5 on 58.2 tsBasketball-Reference.comJeff Hornacek Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Draft Status and more | Basketball-Reference.comhttps://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/thompkl01.html............ 16.4 PER.. 0.7 bpm.. 0.110 ws/48.. 14.4 vorp.. 19/3/2 on 57.5 tsBasketball-Reference.comKlay Thompson Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Draft Status and more | Basketball-Reference.com
Playoffshttps://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hornaje01.html'.... 16.5 PER.. 3.1 bpm.. 0.145 ws/48.. 14.1 vorp.. 15/4/4 on 57.5 tsBasketball-Reference.comJeff Hornacek Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Draft Status and more | Basketball-Reference.comhttps://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/thompkl01.html............ 14.4 PER.. 0.7 bpm.. 0.091 ws/48.... 3.1 vorp.. 19/3/2 on 56.0 tsBasketball-Reference.comKlay Thompson Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Draft Status and more | Basketball-Reference.com
^^^ The Curry Warriors were a 1-man team with +2800 preseason odds in 2015, so there's never been a bigger "nothing" roster that shocked the league...
And Klay was obviously massively overrated and simply inflated by the winning spotlight, similar to Pippen.
Klay, Manu and Tony Parker were never considered a franchise players, and this matters because it means that Lebron's Heat and the 15/16 Cavs were the only teams in the league with multiple franchise players.. And they actually had 3 franchise players (super-team), while every other team had normal rosters of 1 franchise player.. This is why Lebron's teams were the preseason favorites from 11' to 16'.. Essentially, Kyrie and Love were extra superstars that Lebron was gifted, and that no one else had... It was an abnormal, unfair roster.
So the loss of Love and Kyrie simply gave Lebron a normal roster like everyone else.. JR Smith was always considered more talented than Klay, while the rest of the roster matches up as well.. The only reason the Cavs lost was because Lebron had low efficiency at extremely high volume, while playing zero defense and letting an 8 ppg role player win FMVP.
^^^ Lebron never won that way, so Jordan doesn't have to either....
Otoh, Jordan beat top teams with trash from his sidekick, which Lebron never did - he never beat a top 5 SRS team with weak scoring and efficiency from a sidekick..
Furthermore, Jordan defeated max defensive attention by successfully carrying the scoring load on the championship level, which Lebron never did - Lebron needed equal-scoring partners to attract equal defensive attention...
Ultimately, Lebron needed 1st options to play sidekick and 3rd option, while Jordan won with career 2nd options and never had a 3rd scoring option.
All 6 Bulls title teams - Jordan easily beat the 07 Cavs - Lebron. Same with the hospital 15 Finals team. Delladova 2nd option was enough for Lebron to get 2 games off a team that is better than any that Jordan faced in the finals. There's a lot of luck in winning titles, Jordan had some of the best ever, no major injuries in 6 title runs, 2 years off to not have the grind of 8
I agree there's alot of luck in winning titles for normal top players. But Jordan wasn't a normal top player. He was the greatest player and didn't need luck, instead but defied it. He made his own luck by being incredibly great. Nobody has touched on the fact that Pippen was hurt in at least one of the title runs. He had a bad back. I think he missed some games along the way in the playoffs and possibly the finals? But even when he was playing he was playing at a super low level due to having a terrible back problem. In fact was prolly hurting the team as he couldn't do much becasue of the bad back.
So once again Jordan did the impossible and won a championship basically without his number 2. And there was no real number 3. It was all Jordan!
Also your point of Lebron winning 2 games with Delladova. Even though Lebron was missing Love and Kyrie there were still other really good players on that roster as Lebron always had the deck stacked with lot's of talent. But when the warriors got beat by Lebron Curry was hurt, Bogut was hurt, Draymond got suspended, which changed the momentum of the series as it gave the Cavs hope, then the won that game wthout Dryamond, then they started to think we're only down 1 game maybe we got a chance. But the point i was gonna make is even with all the Warrriors hurt and the suspension they still got 3 games off Lebron and a game 7 that went down to the wire where anybody coulda won. So the Lebron winning the 2 games in 15' isn't that impressive imo. As Fallguy said them missing Love and Kyrie just made them a normal very good team instead of having the deck stacked as usual.
Delladova 2nd option was enough for Lebron to get 2 games off a team that is better than any that Jordan faced in the finals.
The 98' Jazz swept Duncan/Popovich and Shaq's 4 all-star Lakers, yet you think they would lose to the 1st timer Warriors, who had a lower producer than Hornacek at sidekick?
Absurd.
41 ppg to 3-peat is luck???
It's luck to have goat stats, goat domination, and always defeating max defensive attention (carrying scoring load) ???
It's easy to forget that the Bulls and Suns both averaged 106.7 ppg in the 93' Finals, so all of Jordan's points were needed, especially since Pippen shot 47% true shooting and therefore couldn't handle additional load.
That's luck to you??.. Having the biggest statistical gap ever between the 1st option and the cast is a GOOD thing and luck???
It's luck to win with the strictest offense ever that doesn't allow ball-domination or a point guard role, yet still requires goat burdens from the 1st option???... aka winning with the strictest and most top-heavy offense ever is lucky???
Jordan won 6 titles as a 1-man team offensively, and his unprecedented offensive carrying allowed the GM to build a team of defenders and role players - aka the Bulls could win with defense because Jordan was carrying the offense
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1997 Playoffs
^^^ Only 2 guys reaching 8 ppg, which is the least scoring help ever, and yet Jordan still led all 5 categories, in addition to carrying the scoring load (defeating max defensive attention).. edit: he was 0.5 rpg behind Rodman
Jordan won 6 titles as a 1-man team offensively, and his unprecedented offensive carrying allowed the GM to build a team of defenders and role players - aka the Bulls could win with defense because Jordan was carrying the offense
The 98' Jazz swept Duncan/Popovich and Shaq's 4 all-star Lakers, yet you think they would lose to the 1st timer Warriors, who had a lower producer than Hornacek at sidekick?Absurd.41 ppg to 3-peat is luck???It's luck to have goat stats, goat domination, and always defeating max defensive attention (carrying scoring load) ???It's easy to forget that the Bulls and Suns both avera
Yeah, all of this. You don't 3 peat twice because you were lucky. You do becasue your the greatest of all time. Well said!
Also i knew that Jazz team was a great team. But now pointing out they beat Duncan's Spurs and Shaq's Lakers. Jazz were even greater than i remembered. Then they ran into Jordan's one man team and couldn't beat the goat. Not even get to a 7th game. 98' was the year Pippen had back problems which started in the eastern conference finals Only Jordan could do the impossible.How do you win a championship without a number 2? I don't remeber if he missed games in the finals or not but his back was hurting him so much he could hardly stay on th court.
There's more to basketball than ****ing PPG
Klay was an elite defender as well, something Mo and Hornacek weren't and whatever random you think was god-tier in your Pippen slander adventures.
You love posting Austin Reeve's scoring when Lebron is out, look at Pippen when Jordan isn't taking 50% of the FGA
Also yes the 15 Warriors would score 140ppg vs 98 Jazz, Curry is like 50% on wide open 3s and he'd have 20+ for the taking vs the level of defense in the 90s, they couldn't come close to handling his movement. Give him the baby 3pt line to make the court even larger to defend for 96/97 and it'd be extra comical.
I didn't say he was terrible. In fact i always mention it was a very good career. I just said he's way overrated when some people like you think he was better than the goat Michael Jordan. Which most people feel saying Lebron was better than Jordan is a really bad opinion. Your a good debater, but it's hard to win a debate when your arguing the silliest take of all time. Your l
I don't love LeBron. I'm telling you the truth when I say...
If Warriors had of not won in 15, they don't retool in 16. It would have been seen as their learning year.
It should also be noted that the only reason the Warriors retooled after 16 was because of the salary cap increase and Durant wanted to go there. Otherwise they would have worked around the edges. They won in 15 and then made it to Game 7 of the Finals after winning 73 games. Why change anything major?
JFC you have no idea.
So what's so great about his game that you think he's better than Jordan? What's Jordan's flaws? I can tell you one flaw right off the top of my head for Lebron. He's not a good shooter. No consistency. Especially his 3 which he loves to shoot/settle for. But even the mid-range jumper is nowhere near Jordan. And pretty much not near most top players. He just keeps shooting and sometimes he gets hot and hits a few shots and everyone's like wow Lebron is so good. But other times, much more often, he's cold and they then lose, or have to try to overcome Lebron having a bad shooting night. I can't call an inconsistent shooter the goat. Obviously shooitng isn't the only thing but it's pretty important. Especially if you want to be the goat. This while Jordan's pull up mid-range jumper awesome.
Also what is he the goat at? You're gonna say passing? He's a very good passrer i'll give him that. But so is Jokic, Magic, and others. And just becasue you pass good doesn't make you the goat. He's good at driving to the hoop yes. But again not anywhere near Jordan's level. Defense Jordan was also better.
Then we go to Jordan's great will to win. As i pointed out above he beat the 98' Jazz team while his number 2 Pippen was hurt. How did e do that? Becasue he refused to lose. So his greatness shined most in the biggest moments. This while Lebron's big losses are documented.
Jordan 6-0 in finals with 6 mvp's. Perenial scoring leader, Jordan was faster. What does Jordan have to do to get your goat vote fly? Oh yeah he did that too, he jumped higher. I mean i could go on and on. And i know you know this. So how can you believe Lebron was better than Jordan? I mean in all seriousness, how can you not see it? My tone is not angry btw. Just genuine disbelief? I mean all the posts in this thread about Lebron vs Jordan when it's so obvious to see.
There's more to basketball than ****ing PPG
Klay was an elite defender as well, something Mo and Hornacek weren't and whatever random you think was god-tier in your Pippen slander adventures.
You love posting Austin Reeve's scoring when Lebron is out, look at Pippen when Jordan isn't taking 50% of the FGA
Again, you guys laud Klay and Pippen's defense, but the only reason the Warriors could win with defense is because Curry was carrying the offense.
Let that sink in - aka no one cares about good defenders on losing teams, so the only reason that Pippen, Klay and Dray get praised for defense is because they have generation-changing 1st options that carry the offense... These generational scorers carry the offense to victory by defeating max defensive attention (carrying scoring load)..
Again, players that can carry the "star" category of scoring allow GM's to build a team of defenders.. Accordingly, no one built defensive rosters like MJ, Curry, Kobe, and other guys that carried the scoring load throughout title runs.
Yeah, I'm sure Durant scoring 27 a night and Klay scoring 20 a night didn't help the Warriors offense at all.
