TPTK Facing Turn Lead and River Barrel
Stakes: $2/$3 NLH with $6 Optional Straddle
Hero's Effective Stacks: $250 (Everyone else covered hero)
Hero (BTN): A♦ Q♦
Pre-flop:
Hero raises to $10. BB calls. HJ calls.
Flop: Q♠ J♥ T♦
BB checks. HJ checks. Hero bets $10. BB calls. HJ calls.
Turn: 4♣
BB leads for $30. HJ folds. Hero calls.
River: 10♠
BB bets $50. Hero ?
Questions:
1. If we are folding the river, should we have just folded the turn?
2. When BB leads, what does this usually signify in a $2/$3 live pool?
8 Replies
It would helpful to have a read on villain.
Also, most of our strategies rely on how we are perceived at the table.
It’s tough to say:
Villain may be afraid you’re going to bet 10 again and wants to build a pot.
V might have 2pair and doesn’t want to face a 4liner.
My first instinct with donks is to raise because it’s usually a weak made hand that can’t stand pressure.
Once in awhile, it’s a draw trying to set its own price.
Facing this situation, I’m going to pot the flop, maybe overbet slightly. I want maximum pressure early with this wet flop to discourage draws. Villain can only determine how strong you are by what you do.
I used to play against an old guy that would bet $10 every street with a little pair. Once you know, you know.
But I don’t know a bunch about what’s going on in this hand. It’s weird he donked a turn 4 like he’s got 44. I’d probably raise the turn to $75 and possibly take the FreeCard on the river - while folding to anymore aggression from him.
Unfortunately, I didn't have a perception of V at the time, because she had only been on the table for about 10 min.
Easy call. Plenty of equity here. Well played hand.
Gonna lose 50% of the time and that's fine.
Board: TdJhQs
Equity Win Tie
MP3 49.60% 45.40% 4.20% { AdQd }
BB 50.40% 46.19% 4.20% { TT, AQs, K9s+, Q9s+, JTs, AQo, K9o+, Q9o+, JTo }
Stakes: $2/$3 NLH with $6 Optional StraddleHero's Effective Stacks: $250 (Everyone else covered hero)Hero (BTN): A QPre-flop:Hero raises to $10. BB calls. HJ calls.Flop: Q J TBB checks. HJ checks. Hero bets $10. BB calls. HJ calls.Turn: 4 BB leads for $30. HJ folds. Hero calls.River: 10 BB bets $50. Hero Questions:1. If we are folding the river, should we have just folded the t
If you gave us the suits of your cards and the cards on board, I'm not seeing them on my phone. If there are flush draws available, it changes the analysis.
PRE - assuming this is a raked game, I think we can raise bigger.
FLOP - I'd probably just check this back if it's a rainbow board. Our opponents can have every 2P combo, some straights, and occasionally a surprising set. I'd be more likely to bet if there are flush draws available, especially if we have the NFD or a blocker to it.
TURN - In multi-way pots or on the turn, a donk is often a strong hand making sure the action doesn't check through.
I tend to think of the turn donk like it's a delayed flop x/r. They don't want to scare us off or bloat the pot before seeing a safe turn card. Alternatively they may do this when the turn improves their hand in a big way, though that seems less likely here.
It can be hard to decipher when they bet somewhat small. I expect weaker players to bet big when they're trying to protect a vulnerable hand and smaller when they have a nutted hand. Sometimes they don't know what size to take to accomplish whatever it is they think they want to, so they just default to half pot and hope it does whatever works out best.
His line suggests he may have just flatted pre with AK, which some low stakes players will do. K9 also makes sense. Sometimes they flat pre with TT and JJ for whatever reason. Sometimes they just monkey stab with 2P because they don't know what they should do.
If we know V is super-fishy, I might call and see if he fires again on the river. If he bets big, I'd just fold. Otherwise, without any reads, I'd be thinking about folding now. We're getting 3:1, but we could be drawing to just four outs, and he may not pay us off when there'll be four to a straight on board if we make our hand.
Thanks for taking the time! I apologize for not considering the possibility of phones not displaying emojis. The suits are as follows:
Hero: Ad Qd
Flop: Qs Jh Td
Turn: 4c
River: Ts
Btw, it was indeed a raked game, but I don't understand why a bigger raise would be necessary in that situation.
Thanks for taking the time! I apologize for not considering the possibility of phones not displaying emojis. The suits are as follows:
Hero: Ad Qd
Flop: Qs Jh Td
Turn: 4c
River: Ts
Btw, it was indeed a raked game, but I don't understand why a bigger raise would be necessary in that situation.
No apology necessary. I didn't realize the new forum software doesn't display suit emojis in the Tapatalk app for mobile until another recent thread in which @javanewt pointed it out to me.
So...seeing the suits and that it's a rainbow board, I'd check this flop back a lot.
That said, the turn donk on the 4c is weird, because it doesn't bring in a BDFD, and he shouldn't be getting here with 44. Even if he did, he shouldn't be donking with it, when we could have AK.
I don't know what to make of it. It would help to have some reads on V. As a default population read, flop and turn donks in multi-way pots tend to be less FOS than flop donks in HU pots. Even when it is HU, I tend to think turn donks are less FOS than flop donks.
The reasoning is what I laid out in my previous post - the turn donk is like a delayed flop check-raise. Because a turn x/r looks so strong, a turn donk is a reasonable way to get value without generating too many folds.
But, on the other hand, his river bet size is odd. If he flopped 2P or a set, or somehow turned a set, and rivered a boat, is this the size he'd choose? Less than 1/2 pot?
That 1/2 pot river bet from OOP is usually pretty bluffy, at least when the turn checks through. I kind of think this is either QJ that doesn't know what to do on the T river, or this is KJ or J9 that wanted to stop us from over-betting the turn, and is now trying to barrel us off, but is scared to go bigger.
I dunno. Seems like he's got way more KJ and J9 combos than QJ combos, and we're getting a price, and I'm the curious type, so I'd probably pay this off.
As for the rake question - assuming the rake / drop is taken post-flop, we're incentivized to take more pots down pre by raising bigger. If we're going to lose money from the pot to the rake post-flop, we want the pots we win post-flop to be bigger.
As a numerical example, consider player A who wins 10 pots of $50 each and loses $5 from each pot to the rake, which is 10% of the pot up to a max of $5. He's losing 10% of his winnings to the house. Compare that to player B who wins one $500 pot and pays the same $5 in rake. He's paying 1% of his winnings to the house.
We have a huge incentive to win as many pots as possible pre-flop (pre-rake), and make the pots we win post-flop as big as possible. We actually have a perverse incentive to win as much money as possible by playing as few pots as possible. The guy who pays $10 in rake winning two $250 pots pays 100% more rake than the guy who pays $5 in rake winning one $500 pot.