Super Simple Question

Checking because any open will get 16 callers and build a pot with SPR 1.

Checking here. Loose passive as you described means we can build a pot post flop when we catch a piece and hopefully take down big pots when we hit the monster

I'm just checking my option. If we did raise and flopped an ace, some players in these kinds of weaker games would limp/call hands like AJ, AQ or even AK. It's also great when we check pre and flop two pair on A85 and we end up stacking them.

I raise huge.

I assume this is 1/3? Raise to 45, as if someone opened to $15, and you're 3B'ing. Watch as everyone folds like a lawn chair.

There's a reason why we punish the limpers. What is the point of just checking, and then trying to guess where we are post-flop in a multi-way pot OOP?

Maybe I'm too nitty (probably am!) but I like to opt for lower variance plays when OOP.

We could easily get called and then are just barreling into a bloated pot where we have to keep betting to keep up appearances.

Calling isn't low variance if you catch a piece of the flop, but someone else catches a bigger piece.

We could easily get called? True. We could also easily get folds. When everyone limp-folds, we're just printing money.

How many calls are we getting? 1? Maybe 2? what is the likelihood that any of the 4 limpers has a hand strong enough to call a $45 raise when they just limped in? What are the odds that more than 1 player has a strong enough hand to call?

So we get called. Okay. Now we play poker post-flop, with an uncapped range. We don't need to barrel to "keep up appearances". We can check the flop a lot, and make a delayed c-bet on the turn.

A5s is a strong enough hand to raise, and strong enough to 3B as a bluff. We should be raising. If a standard 3x-5x open will just get multiple callers, then eff it, open to 15x.

I used to live for spots like this at 1/3, especially when some aggro would open to $15 in EP and get 3-4 callers. I'd make it $100 in the BB, they'd all fold, and I'd scoop a nice pot without having to make a pair.

I'll assume this is 1/3 NL. This game with only 1/3rd of pots being raised preflop is playing more passive than my typical game (which sees 2/3rd of pots being raised preflop), and thus we have to be very careful of OMC types limping drawing hands like AK/JJ.

So after 4 limpers I'm happily seeing a cheap flop in the BB 100% of the time here with Axs.

Heck, after 4 limpers in this passive (tarpy?) lineup I probably even just see a cheap flop with AJo / ATs, but I'm passive like that (especially OOP).

GcluelessNLnoobG

Its 1/2 and I would most likely to have raised it to 12-15. A raise to 20 would most likely take it down imo. But again if I get called pf, I'd be in some trouble.

What are you raising in the BB? Obviously TT+, AJ+, KQ, KJ? What about J10s, or pocket pairs lower than TT?

It depends. If people are limp calling a ton and even with pretty good hands, I would check. If they are limp folding a ton then we can make a big iso here ~10bb other so.

My strat of having a 0% raising range in the ~HJ- greatly relies on some people at the table having this type of mentality, and thankfully that typically isn't an issue in my games (i.e. I punish the raisers by limping).

There are many pros to just seeing a cheap flop here. Taking down $13 preflop when stacks are $500 isn't exactly "printing money". Risking $45 to take down $13, especially with limpers like me in the hand, ain't exactly good risk versus reward. We don't exactly want to blow out hands preflop that we could have won huge $$$ off if we binked postflop. Not saying there aren't pros to raising, but there are most definitely pros to just seeing a cheap flop here as well.

As for trying to guess where we are postflop multiway on Axx flops, we can mostly just lean to safely check/folding. Once and a blue moon we'll fold the best hand... in a $15 pot, oh noes.

GcluelessprosandconsnoobG

Why would you be in trouble if you get called? Flat-calling your raise seriously caps your opponent's range. Are you playing poker, or bingo, just trying to hit a flop, but otherwise folding?

You aren't committed to triple barreling with air just because you raised pre. You're allowed to have some give-ups, some check/delayed c-bets, some check-raises, some one-and-dones, some double-barrels, and some triple-barrels. You'll have a mix of value and bluffs.

At 1/2 or 1/3, games with lots of loose-passive fish, I'm probably raising 77+, suited ace-broadways and ace-wheels, suited broadway connectors, and occasionally some much trashier hands.

You can't make money at 1/2 or 1/3 if everyone is limp-calling and you also limp-call, and everyone just plays fit-or-fold, and uses standard sizing for their bets. That's not poker. It's bingo. You're completely at the mercy of the cards and position when you play that way in a game like that.

Raise pre. Punish the limpers. Then just out-play them post-flop.

I routinely destroy guys who play this way against me. They think they're outplaying me when they limp-call pre, smash the flop, it goes check-check, then they bet turn for value, and I fold. They don't seem to realize that the pot would have been at least three times larger had they opened and I 3B, or vice-versa.

You're not punishing me by limping. You're punishing yourself.

You're not getting outplayed when you raise for lol 15x preflop and then are forced to fold all your potential equity to a limp/reraise?

You're 3betting a nitty opener?

Assuming you're the best player at the table, is it in my best interest to see flops with you? Or would it be better for me (and thus worse for you) to end flops preflop with a limp/reraise?

Again, I'm not saying there aren't pros to raising in this spot. But you're making it out like there aren't pros to just seeing a cheap flop (which there clearly are).

ETA: It's possible you are more arguing for the case where the typical OMC will simply limp/call their drawing hands like AK/JJ, and that's fair enough. I'm obviously limping these hands to limp/reraise (which really does punish the raisers).

Gnothatin',justsayin'G

Let's step back.

How I play these sorts of situations in these sorts of games, specifically, what raise size I'll use, is very dependent on stack sizes, past history with my opponents, table images, etc.

I might raise to $45 occasionally. More often, maybe $30, maybe $20-$25. The main point is I'm not going to open to $12 or $15 when that's just going to get multiple callers, and I'll be forced to play the rest of the hand OOP and multi-way against a bunch of rec-fish with insanely wide ranges.

If we want to over-limp in LP, fine. But over-limping A5s in the BB, hoping to catch a piece, really isn't much better than opening to $12 to $15.

If we open $12 or $15 and lose, we lose a bigger pot. If we win, we win a bigger pot. If we limp and win, we win a smaller pot. If we lose, we lose a smaller pot (hopefully). The only real difference is that when we raise, our range is uncapped, and opponents may be more willing to check back to us if we check flop, allowing us to get a free card to improve.

Raising bigger should get more folds. Very often, everyone will fold, which is a win, and yes, printing money against opponents like this.

If someone calls when we make it $20 or more, okay, so be it. We'll have to out-play them post-flop. Sometimes we'll have to give up and lose a small pot. Sometimes we'll win a nice pot, now bigger than it would have been had we just limped in pre.

What we're not going to be doing is trying to run over a loose-passive / trappy opponent by triple-barreling with air. That's just not a part of our strategy in a game like this.

When we raise larger pre-flop, our post-flop strategy is going to change. We'll be checking a lot, and check-raising some. We'll be varying our raise size depending on flop texture. We'll mostly be betting for value, or semi-bluffing with high equity draws. Against passive opponents, we won't be getting raised often, if ever, so we'll be able to shape the pot as we like.

It's actually pretty easy to play against a loose-passive opponent if we play this way. There isn't much a loose-passive opponent can do to extract more value from us without tipping the strength of their hands. If loose-passive V suddenly shows aggression, we'll over-fold. When loose-passive V is calling, we'll be under-bluffing.

When you're constantly limp-calling pre, you allow me to dictate the terms of engagement. I can over-limp behind you when you have a big hand and are hoping I raise. The pot will be smaller when you win post-flop. If you're limp-calling when I raise big, you're letting me see a flop with my entire range. When you call, I know your range has some strong hands in it, so I won't be dumping tons of money into the pot with marginal hands or total air.

Your assumption is that Joe Aggro who only comes into a pot for a raise and who will occasionally 3B will always blast off post-flop, and will fall into all your traps. But that's not what happens, at least not as often as you seem to think. What you're really doing is playing too passively, hoping to cooler an opponent who is unaware of what you're doing.

I love flopping sets, 2P, straights and combo-draws against players who slow-play big pairs pre-flop, and over-value those hands post-flop.

So, no, I'm not getting out-played by loose-passive players when I'm using controlled aggression pre and post-flop. I'm routinely destroying opponents who play that way.

Like I said in my ETA above (which I'm guessing you've missed?), I'm often limping to limp/reraise (which is a disaster for people raising too wide). If the limpers are passively limp/calling, then not nearly as much of a disaster (although there are still plenty of arguments to just see a flop here).

GcluelessNLnoobG

I think high post flop rake plus villains being fit or fold our EV is higher by raising big as you win a lot pre flop or only get one or two callers and win a lot post when they whiff.

Limping with a plan to limp-back-raise with a wide variety of hands, from a wider range of positions, is not a sound strategy. You're losing value.

If you're only doing it with strong hands from EP, your aggro opponents will just over-fold. When they call, or 4B you, you're the one who'll be in a tough spot, not them, because you'll be OOP, against an aggressive opponent with an uncapped range. Good luck with that.

Again, you're not punishing them or me by limping in with hands that are strong enough to raise. You're just punishing yourself.

That said - I'll sometimes limp-3B, too, especially in games like this, or games where all my EP opens get tons of calls, hardly any 3B's, and my 4B size is more often than not just going to be a jam. I will OCCASIONALLY limp in EP, planning to back-raise when I know at least 2 players behind me don't like to over-limp.

It's a tactic I'll employ VERY selectively. It's never going to be my default setting. More often than not, raising for value is going to be higher EV than trying to trap everyone who is more aggro than you, when you're not aggro at all.

But, I'm guessing I'll never persuade you to play a more fundamentally sound game, and you'll never persuade me to play trappy-passive as a default, so you keep playing your style, and I'll keep playing mine.

Other than the "more fundamentally sound" part of this comment, I would agree with the rest of it this comment.

Ggoodlucktobothofus,imo!G

Back to the question in the OP, I am checking here.

NLHT&P has a section about this exact question. The time to blast all the limpers out of the hand preflop from the BB is when we have a total garbage hand we do not want to see a flop with. That means we lose the least by not taking our free flop.

This hand I consider to be too good to raise. I want to see a flop with these people. Sometimes I’ll make the nuts and they’ll gift me their stack.

Hi! I recently got CLP. Could you tell me where I could find this iso ranges ?

I’d make a 10x-12x raise the first time you caught A5s here. What I’d do the 2nd time depends on what the table did the first time.

For all of you saying check, what is the weakest suited ace with which you would raise here?

I'd prob easily raise A10s+, and would at times raise A2-A5s some of the time, and than just check A6-A9s. Thoughts?

Also I understand Vernon's point, but define garbage? Like am I supposed to be raising 96o, 82o, Q5 in the BB? When I see an unknown player in the BB raising first into a bunch of limpers am I supposed to assume he his doing it with garbage?

I truly respect and value your input Vernon so do not think I am coming from a place of higher knowledge, just curious.