Reg couple playing together
Hi all,
In my PLO player pool there is a couple that often plays together at the same table. Several other regs have commented about this with disapproval, and one even said she thought they signal to each other in game (unverified). One once called one the “spotter” and the other the “sniper.” Anyway there are serious collusion concerns in the player pool about them. They also happen to win and they are professional poker players.
I have mentioned my displeasure to them directly on a couple occasions and have called them out so people at the table know they are a team.
I wonder what else can be done in this situation beyond peer pressure. There have been several regular couples who play these PLO games but they never play at the same table or get a table change as soon as possible. Can the floor force them not to play together?
The only trouble is, the collusion is hard to detect and the husband when I challenged them once even said “prove it.”
I find it really repulsive that they try to gain an edge playing together especially as they are winners and play for a living, as do I. (If they were bad/losing players I really wouldn’t care.)
Anyone with ideas, please share.
Thanks,
DT
10 Replies
A winning player is not the same as a pro, but even if they're not pros, I still don't think they should be allowed to play together.
Giving someone a loan or even paying for their buy in is not the same as being a couple with shared money and expenses.
Obviously a winner buying dinner isn't even similar.
I have never really understood what it meant for two players to share a bankroll. Is it just like an emergency fund they can borrow from, or does all their money go into that and they don't even k
Let's simplify this. We are talking about relationships. Relationships can range from two people agreeing to pay for gas and a dinner to two people playing off the same bankroll to two people living together to two people being legally married. There is a huge range here.
Given that the spectrum is large and wide, and the range gradually changes, where do you draw the line?
I see many situations where two players might live together. They have regular (crappy) jobs that just pay the bills and their poker earnings are for the luxuries. They are not a couple, but their finances are clearly intertwined just through happiness. Should they be allowed to play together?
How about two best friends who are wealthy and play together and regularly try very hard (to their detriment) to take each other's money just for bragging rights?
How about two players who regularly play together and have started seriously dating? They are still financially independent, but clearly have interest in each other's affairs.
How about two older family members playing together (adult brothers)? No overt financial ties, but clearly a strong relationship.
Where I am going with all of this is that there is a large grey area that consists of many factors (financial, heart, blood, friendship, etc.). You are trying to use a grey marker to draw a line through this grey area. Furthermore, as you already recognize, this is near impossible for anyone to enforce because they do not know all of the details.
Instead I think it is better to draw a clear line at overt cheating (signaling, trading cards, etc.) as a definite no-no and instead leave it up to other players to try and understand how they play and deal with it.
Note, I say this mostly about cash games where there are not any ICM concerns which will multiply collusion (including softplay) concerns.
I will also note that it has been my experience that whenever two opposing players have a meaningful relationship (friends, lovers, financial, whatever) that it is generally to my advantage more often that not as it affects their play significantly in ways they do not realize.
You're right, some of those examples you gave have varying levels of being problematic. I just would draw the line at a different place than you would. I would not allow a married couple or any two players who are known to share the same bankroll, in the second manner I described above.
This is assuming the game is big enough that it is possible for players to make a decent amount of money through collusion, and that other players don't like them being allowed to play together. If none of the other players minds them playing together then I wouldn't prevent them from playing together.
Hi all,
In my PLO player pool there is a couple that often plays together at the same table. Several other regs have commented about this with disapproval, and one even said she thought they signal to each other in game (unverified). One once called one the “spotter” and the other the “sniper.” Anyway there are serious collusion concerns in the player pool about them. They also happen to win and they are professional poker players.
I have mentioned my displeasure to them directly on a couple occa
what are the stakes? what exactly did they do?
It’s a $5 bring in plo game that can get quite large and multiple $1,000s scores are common. They soft play and according to one reg have signaled to each other in game (I have not verified the last point).
how does a married couple soft playing hurt anyone? ive played in this exact scenario and it makes them incredibly easy to read.
If you're not a regular and don't know they're married, it could give you a really biased perception of how they play in general.
yes, but two people who soft play each other (never bluff each other) are very easy to play against even before you know exactly what is going on, no? id love to play at a table of people who never bluff in 3 way pots.
I've stated plenty that if I know (or feel) that Players are working together then I try to wield that to my benefit.
Where I feel the line is FOR SURE, is the signaling. Soft Play is one thing, but if Players are actively signaling or using a bet/cold 3-4 betting strategy then they need to be called out. The bet/cold raise spots don't really work to well if they sit next to each other since it doesn't generate any extra dead chips, but it can be attempted. In the home game where I feel this was happening the two Players 'actively' never sat within 3 chairs of each other, if they could help it.
There are Regs in our game that if they end up HU on Turn, then the River can be very passive. But, IMO, they aren't actively seeking out those spots .. it's only reactionary once the situation pops up. GL
yes, but two people who soft play each other (never bluff each other) are very easy to play against even before you know exactly what is going on, no? id love to play at a table of people who never bluff in 3 way pots.
I can't imagine that was what he meant. Anyone I have ever seen soft play still play normally when the pot is three ways.
You're right, some of those examples you gave have varying levels of being problematic. I just would draw the line at a different place than you would. I would not allow a married couple or any two players who are known to share the same bankroll, in the second manner I described above.
This is assuming the game is big enough that it is possible for players to make a decent amount of money through collusion, and that other players don't like them being allowed to play together. If none of the
I agree with a of this.
I would also say that if I am at a table where two players make it clear they have a prior relationship, I think it is imperative to find out what that relationship is and how it affects their play.
For one, (obviously) making sure they are not openly cheating. I will specifically look for signals or tells between them.
More importantly, to see how it affects their play. For better or worse, players will play differently against players they have a relationship with. It make be subconsciously deciding to call with pocket Jack's rather than reraise, or it might be even result in more aggression instead. Some way their play will change. I want to know how.
