I am a literal legend of gambling, ask me anything.

higher stakes public cash games are absolutely dying. this isn't even up for debate. There are a lot less of them than even 5 years ago and the game quality is much worse. And this is going to continue in the same direction.

Now i would agree that lower stakes games and tournaments are doing very well.

But how much money can people really make in low stakes games and what are most tournament grinders really making per hour on average?
I mean seriously take the top 1000 guys grinding the tournament circuit and very few of them are making good money year in year out and most are wasting their lives, many buried in makeup basically hoping to hit the lottery.

As an industry , playing poker for FUN is doing great no doubt about that.

That doesn't mean NOBODY can make good money at poker. If tons of people were making 150k( since that's the number being thrown around) 5-10 years ago in public cash games, and way less people make that today (even though the money is worth a lot less) then yea poker as an industry for making a good living is def getting a lot worse.

That and the fact that 150k is a lot less now than it was with inflation. Health insurance for said player's family went from $400 a month to $1700 a month.

It depends on the State you're in...but even if we're talking about federal assistance: It is beyond easy to get full medical/dental/vision coverage for not a penny. Never a copay, no fees, nothing. Even if you're earning a bit already. Socialized healthcare if basically already here.

Just saying. But of course your point about inflation is true. Unfortunately.

Now I'm seriously thinking about committing to this. Just to see how far I can go under today's circumstances. Playing a mix of both live and online.

I have a starting roll of like ~$6k and enough income each month to cover almost the entirety of my bills. But, as you point out, I could put that same time and energy into something else and probably make out much better in the end. Financially and psychologically.

We'll see.

Good to hear that no one here has taken you seriously.

Been lurking here for quite some time and it's been a long time since such a delusional attention whore has made a thread at this level.
Didnt even wanted to reply to this thread.

But when you write, "poker is dying", I wonder how you explain that the EPT/WPT sets new participant records every year?

Limon!

Thank you for this thread. We’ve been waiting for something like this ever since #2000.

What are your thoughts on the future of the PGA Tour and LIV? LIV getting Rahm is a game changer imo. The PGAT is going to have to let these guys play both tours, and anyone in PGAT leadership that says Rahm can’t play in their events should be fired.

He already explained that a few posts ago.

I'm sure he read it. He just disagrees with it.

In all reality: The numbers just don't support "poker is a dying industry" but it's nice to hear other people's opinions now and then. Limon brought up a point about public games and what not but poker is played outside of just LA. There are lot of opportunities to play private games for high stakes in other metropolitan areas. At least here in the NY area - the game is definitely growing again.

Look at projects like GTOWizard. Elite is $150/mo. and yet they're having no problems selling subs. Look at the coaching packages some guys are selling and for thousands of dollars. There would be no market for these products if the game was shrinking. Period.

They're bitching because they don't know any better. They're just ignorant. Or they live in a State that doesn't just provide everything for free. More and more do though, and as said: Federal assistance is easier to get every day. Why do you think everyone and their brother is rushing the border? We're on a crazy, socialist spending spree right now.

instead of just bumping my thread like the bitch ass slave you are try reading the thread and you'd have the answer to your question. its insanely simple but obv too advanced for my dumbass slaves. maybe just stick to bumping my thread and increasing my view count to make me more of a legend than i already am.

I don't mind your posts (I'm pretty thick skinned). I just think the game is still a little more alive than you realize because of how you've already made your money and don't need anything from it anymore.

Dude...lots of 5/5 and 5/10 games locally here north of NYC that you can easily get into if you have any social skills at all. Very, very soft games but of course higher variance because they're always so eager to get the money in. And other states like Texas are just brimming with live games. For a guy living outside of Dallas playing fulltime online + live...I think some people could do very well for themselves in that environment.

mikech said he found that post here https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showp... but the link isn't working??

Up until the point i started making rake playing in the game i kept meticulous records and details about games and players. once i was making more money off the rake and off my ownership of LATB i started keeping more blunt poker record keeping. maximizing my win in the game was no longer my goal, the health of the game was my goal. basically i know how much is in my safe deposit box and players bank (cash business) and i know how much that number goes up every month, thats all poker money, no checks go in there. sometimes big withdrawals are made though!

This is one of the best posts in this thread. Unfortunately it is accurate

you sir are a gentleman and a scholar.

Pretty silly take.
The market can be shrinking while people still pay for products in said shrinking market.
Programs like this are a big part of why the market is shrinking.
I mean there's no question that in 2011 the online poker market in the US shrunk overnight and yet there were Americans paying for Poker Tracker and Huds.

In fact shrinking is a much more accurate description of what's happening than dying.

I mean seriously a product being sold that many people are using to cheat online and will be using to cheat live when computer power is faster isn't a point in favor of the game growing.

Yeah those products are more of a necessity in a shrinking market, if there was money raining from the sky you could just sit there and hold out a bucket.

But shrinking is a better word than dying.

I know you go to parx…

Not sure how you can say that high stakes public cash games are dying when at parx they’re spreading bigger and bigger games that never existed anywhere before like 50-50-100 and 100-100-200 plo4.

In the past (8years ago) they struggled to get 5-5plo going.

Holdem is dying but plo has only grown.

There used to be a ton of 5-Tnl games everywhere and they have kind of gone the way of the dodo. So in some ways you and limon are right.

Idk I think it’s cyclical and hard to gauge. Some days I feel like holdem is dying and the rooms look bleak and then a promo runs or a tournament series at borgata and everything is booming.

The ebb and flow of poker action is hard to quantify. It’s also hard to compare to the old days because so many markets have been bifurcated.

What?
I don't remember them struggling to get 5/5 plo in 2016ish at all. You could be right though I wasn't there a ton back then. But by 2018 it went all the time. Oh and back then borgata had 5/5 every day, multiple games most days. 10/10 plo 2-3 days a week. And those are all dead games there now outside of this tournament series.Borgata will be a ghost town in 2 weeks when the series is over. And this series as far as cash games go is NOTHING compared to the series before covid. So Parx (which is extremely well run) stole Borgata's (which is run horribly) plo action and b/w the 2 places there is less 5/5 plo than there was combined in 2018.

There is actually less 5/5 there than there was 3 years ago. It still goes mostly every day but after the reopening it was going literally every day for a year. Now on wed thurs and sunday it's hit or miss. About 50/50 to go on those days. Maybe a little more than 50/50 on Sunday. Monday it's rare.In 2021 i remember Thursdays with 3 games and they were great games.Even Monday would sometimes get 2 games. Pre covid there was a 5/5/10 (this was the game on the board) game on Sundays that would get 3-4 tables for a while. Right before covid hit it was down to 2 tables. That game doesn't exist anymore.

that 50-50-100 game has gone consistently on Tuesdays only for a few months.
the 200-200 plo went last week from late tues until wed night which was converted from that 50-50-100 game. Haven't seen it otherwise but i'm sure it's happened before.
This game is also likely the biggest public game in the country outside of wsop.

You are right about the ebbs and flows. Parx can get some massive games. But what I have noticed is once or twice a year big plo will go 2-3 times a week. When that happens some guys shot take from 5/5 etc. It lasts for about a month or so before people get absolutely wrecked then it goes away for a while. When it's just once a week it lasts way longer.

So you guys think someone in my shoes would do better in the long run by focusing on PLO instead of NLHE?

lol. focus on a real career in a growing industry. play poker as a kick ass hobby.

Well, there is of course this route, too. I still have some other options available to me in life. And enough money to play a little as a hobby for now.

Yes plo attracts gamblers and generally people w more money willing to risk it.

Limons right about finding another revenue stream. Invest or work and play poker as a 2nd job. This is good advice for like 99% of poker players.

If you can handle swings well yes.

Some people, pros even, can’t handle the swings