KK 4! Pot multi-way w/ player all in
This hand took place at the tail end of a 15 hour session.
3k effective
$1/$3 NLH (match the stack)
Standard open in this game is $15
Preflop:
UTG limps $3. I get dealt KhKs utg2, I raise to $20. Fun drunk player next to act calls with about $145 total in his stack. Gets to aggressive reg in Hj. He 3 bets to $60. Folds to sb who cold calls. I 4 bet to $245. First caller goes all in for $145. Lag reg calls. Sb folds.
Main pot $495 side pot: $200
Flop QdQh7h.
Check. check.
Turn 2s.
I bet $250. Lag raises to $625. We call.
(Main pot:$495) sp: $1,450
River 3h.
We check. Lag bets $1,140.
(Main pot: $495) sp: $2,590
(Total size of pot: $3,085)
I’m very familiar with the Lag. He can mix it up pretty good. We have played multiple 3 and 4 bet pots the last few times we played at same table.
What’s our play?
Spoiler
After some thought we find a call…lose to 77…😐
11 Replies
Preflop looks good, and flop seems reasonable.
Your preflop 4b announces big pair or AK. so mostly you seek to get a little value from weaker 2pr while avoiding losing your stack to a Qx+...you can bet small or check the turn.
We can discount flush draws somewhat bc you have Kh and villain checks flop.
Preflop looks good, and flop seems reasonable.
Your preflop 4b announces big pair or AK. so mostly you seek to get a little value from weaker 2pr while avoiding losing your stack to a Qx+...you can bet small or check the turn.
We can discount flush draws somewhat bc you have Kh and villain checks flop.
Yeah I wanted to size up pre due to all the dead money in the pot , sb cold caller (cold caller had about 3.5k), and stack sizes in play. And river, def discounted a lot of his potential flush combos. Honestly wasn’t too concerned about heart on the river.
Preflop when you are this deep I would size up the 4bet OOP to at a minimum 4x plus the dead money from cold callers, so 320.
In 4bet pots you are going to be cbetting a ton. 25% or 50% works. 25% is the preferred sizing on a ton of boards so I think a lot of the times it doesn't hurt to just go 25%.
Turn is a weird node since you should be betting flops a ton. I think the thing would be to size up ~75% pot or check. Definitely calling turn raise.
River I guess you have to go based on your reads and history with villain. It's hard to put villain on natural bluffs. You have the Kh and one other K, so there are only 2 combos of AhKx. Meanwhile, I think villain can take this line for value with as thin as Qx, maybe AA+, and there are a fair number of combos of AQs, KQs. Maybe AQo, QJs depending on how loose V peeled the 4bet. Villains bluffs are probably going to need to be AKs and AKo even without hearts. Unless maybe he is turning lower pocket pairs into bluffs or using other AXs as a bluff. I guess going for you is that you would think villain would want to start betting off Qx on a two tone board on the flop, reducing some of the possible combos of value hands they have.
So it's read dependent, and we're probably not supposed to fold KK with a heart, but I could get behind an overfold here unless you can come up with enough bluffs and discount enough value hands here.
Turn seems dicey.
Preflop when you are this deep I would size up the 4bet OOP to at a minimum 4x plus the dead money from cold callers, so 320.
In 4bet pots you are going to be cbetting a ton. 25% or 50% works. 25% is the preferred sizing on a ton of boards so I think a lot of the times it doesn't hurt to just go 25%.
Turn is a weird node since you should be betting flops a ton. I think the thing would be to size up ~75% pot or check. Definitely calling turn raise.
River I guess you have to go based on your read
I can def get behind a larger sizing pre w the stack depth and dead money in there.
I considered a small cbet, and after reviewing and talking this hand over a few times, I wish I did cbet small.
Without the Kh I think I fold this almost 100%. And v. A weaker player or weaker reg, I would do a lot of folding because many aren’t bluffing here.
Villain in this hand is definitely capable of finding bluffs for sure. So leaned towards a call. But as you mentioned. Not many natural bluffs either.
Live and learn. Thanks for the feedback!
How does the bet sizing theory work when you have a protected main pot and only $200 in the heads-up side pot? I think villain will understand we are not cbetting lightly when we overbet the sidepot...
How does the bet sizing theory work when you have a protected main pot and only $200 in the heads-up side pot? I think villain will understand we are not cbetting lightly when we overbet the sidepot...
Honestly, no idea. It’s a very unique situation. Not sure what sizing to use w/ a side pot. Especially when side pot is smaller than the main.
I guess I took a sizing relevant to the overall size. But, yeah, not 100% sure what correct size is.
Wow. So much going on here.
PRE - $20 open seems fine. When action gets back to you, I think I'd like a bigger 4B size, like at least $300. Maybe even $350. I'm just thinking that HJ's 3B was somewhat small, SB's call was kind of loose-passive, and if fun drunk guy jams, we don't want the other two thinking they're getting a good enough price to come along with any two cards, forcing us to play multi-way and OOP in a bloated pot.
FLOP - We 4B pre. We should be c-betting pretty much 100% for a small size. Think I'd go $250-$300 here. V should be folding pretty much everything that isn't Qx, 77, or a draw to the nut flush.
TURN - If we bet flop and get called, I'm probably betting pot ($700). After flop checks-through, I'm probably betting pot. Expecting V to fold his flush draws, and raise his boats. If we bet pot, I'm folding to a raise. Here, as played, I think we have to call when we bet small and he takes this sizing with his raise.
RIVER - Yuck. Flush draw gets there. He'd have to be semi-maniacal to play JJ or worse this way. Think we have to fold when we get here this way and he takes this sizing on the river.
Wow. So much going on here.
PRE - $20 open seems fine. When action gets back to you, I think I'd like a bigger 4B size, like at least $300. Maybe even $350. I'm just thinking that HJ's 3B was somewhat small, SB's call was kind of loose-passive, and if fun drunk guy jams, we don't want the other two thinking they're getting a good enough price to come along with any two cards, forcing us to play multi-way and OOP in a bloated pot.
FLOP - We 4B pre. We should be c-betting pretty much 100% for a smal
Pre, I def should have went bigger. 300 min, for sure.
I was/am aware of high frequency cbet in 4! Pot. For some reason, I deviated from that. But 100% agree and should have been range betting for small sizing.
Jumping to the river, I definitely considered folding. And in hindsight (not being result oriented), should have. Not many natural bluffs.
In game, I thought having this KK combo w the heart was one of the few calling combos, but such an under bluffed spot at these stakes. Def should be leaning towards a fold.
Thanks for the feed back and insight. Appreciate it!!
Pre, I def should have went bigger. 300 min, for sure.
I was/am aware of high frequency cbet in 4! Pot. For some reason, I deviated from that. But 100% agree and should have been range betting for small sizing.
Jumping to the river, I definitely considered folding. And in hindsight (not being result oriented), should have. Not many natural bluffs.
In game, I thought having this KK combo w the heart was one of the few calling combos, but such an under bluffed spot at these stakes. Def should be l
By the river, I'm not thinking about the suits of my K's. I'm just looking at the way the hand played out.
It sucks to fold AA/KK here, but we have to think logically. Most V's aren't going to run a big two-street bluff on a board like this, where one or more obvious draws get there, and the board is paired, and the paired card is one that's feature heavily in our range.
As the PFR, we're going to have QQ/AQ/KQ here a fair bit, and some flushes, and some AA/KK that just don't want to fold. It's unlikely he's raising turn with AhXo, just hoping the river is another heart, so he can rep the nut flush, not when you're going to be coming over the top of his turn raise with any Qx. He's probably not doing this with JJ or a worse 1P holding.
In fact, most V's aren't going to make this turn raise without a very strong hand, a super-strong draw, or a hand that blocks your super-strong hands.
When the flush comes in on the river, on this paired board, and he bets again, he's got Qx, at a minimum. More than likely, he rivered the nut flush, or he has a boat. When the flop checks through, 22 gets added as a possibility on the turn, alongside 77, and even Q7s, a hand that an aggressive reg might play this way.
It can feel counter-intuitive to bet the flop in a spot like this, where it seems like we're either way ahead or way behind. But we should be betting, for value, and to deny equity. In this pot, we were already behind 77 and Qx, but we don't really want to give any of his pocket pairs or flush draws a free card. Any 22-JJ combo can make a boat on the turn. We'll never know if the turn helped our opponent or not when we check this flop.
Betting small in way ahead / way behind situations forces our opponents to formulate an optimal response. When we're beat, they're forced to choose between letting us dictate the pot size when we're betting small, or betraying the strength of their hand by raising, possibly forcing us to fold. When we're ahead, they're forced to choose between calling with a worse hand, folding away their equity, or risking a raise as a bluff.
By the river, I'm not thinking about the suits of my K's. I'm just looking at the way the hand played out.
It sucks to fold AA/KK here, but we have to think logically. Most V's aren't going to run a big two-street bluff on a board like this, where one or more obvious draws get there, and the board is paired, and the paired card is one that's feature heavily in our range.
As the PFR, we're going to have QQ/AQ/KQ here a fair bit, and some flushes, and some AA/KK that just don't want to fold. It's u
Agreed on all points! Thanks for the indepth feedback.
