WSOP 2023 ME deep(ish) run payout trouble
Hello, Workaholics!
My name is Pavel, I play poker for over 10 years now, a very few of you may know me as "bomba-tiktak" on pokerstars. I currently play cash online on Ontario based platforms.
And..... I'm having concerns that I'm getting robbed by Paris cage and some of the WSOP representatives.
There's a lot of little things that are making me think so, but I will try to keep this post as short as possible.
So, this summer I finished 48th in ME this year for a payout of $188400 and I only managed to get $50000 out of Paris cage, which i took in cash, while the other $138400
was supposed to be sent to my bank account via wire transfer.
But... according to the Paris cage manager Meagan Marks and WSOP poker operations director Andrew Cash, this wire transfer had been placed on hold (for almost a month now) for investigation by my bank's intermediary and they cannot do anything about it at this point. Even give me a wire federal tracking number so I can come to my bank and ask questions.
I spent three weeks trying to sort it out with Andy via everyday e-mails , and he only provided me with misleading information, dodging the tracking info question for as long as possible.
The latest update was that he cannot get the tracking info from Paris cage.
A little recap of what happened:
I used my Russian passport to avoid paying the draconic 30% tax for North Americans (sorry guys), but I wanted my wire to go to TD Canada USD account.
I gave a paper with my wire information to the Paris cage clerk, and she refused it (?!). Only asked to fill out the WSOP wire form, which didn't require any addresses.
I didn't know the importance of it at that point.
Of course, they put my Russian address and no wonder the wire never went through. They sent wire on December 14th, allegedly.
Since then series of weird things happened:
1. When I first asked about confirmation of a processed wire they sent me a document which showed that this wire is still "Awaiting approval". Later they apologized and told me that it was a wrong document and it should've never been sent to me.
2. When I asked Meagan about tracking info, she sent me their banks SWIFT information, which is a least important piece of information needed to track a wire transfer.
She also mentioned that she works in this industry for many years and knows exactly that this is what my bank needs in order to help me .
3. Then Andy Rich took over. Allegedly, they sent a request to Wells Fargo to track this wire. Wells Fargo investigated and concluded that some information was missing, and on 28/12 Paris cage sent the missing information and the money can show up any time now (nobody ever asked me about my Canadian address).
Around January 7th, Andy provided me with an update that the transfer is on hold by my bank's intermediary and Wells Fargo is waiting for their response. I requested the tracking number again, and he replied that it is not in his power to get it from the Paris cage.
They offered me to come to Vegas and request a wire recall, which would take around 14 business days, but at this point I find it difficult to trust them (for example, Mr. Cash has a picture of a Vampire on his LinkedIn background) and would like to hear the people's opinion first.
Maybe some of you accountants, lawyers, and maybe even witchers would be able to help me to finally receive my hardly earned T-dollars. Why on earth are they refusing to give me the tracking number?
.
It's a world championship and I want to represent Russia (not only because of the taxes, although it plays a major role, but also representing the school). Let's say these were Winter Olympics in USA, and I somehow made a cut, had a lucky run and received a bronze medal in bobsleigh competition. But I trained all year in Canada, should I be taxed as a Canadian?
If you wanted to represent Russia at the Olympics, you wouldn’t be allowed to compete. Russia is currently banned from the Olympics, and AFAIK Russian athletes are only allowed to compete without any national affiliation.
It seems like OP’s real complaint should be toward the Russian government for taking senseless ongoing actions to provoke Western financial sanctions. The WSOP has no control over this. They aren’t trying to screw you over personally, and they don’t care whether you have to pay taxes on the money or not. Unless you have a rock solid plan to depose Putin, your best course of action would be to cancel the wire and collect the money in person.
Then don’t allow me to enter the tournament and rename it to US Closed.
There was another option to negotiate over the phone and perhaps in person, but you already know my concerns..
p.s. i replied why. he replied with recall option
Are you worried/paranoid about showing up in LV as a Russian/Canadian and having the US Treasury Department ready to take you away for questioning?
Most of the comments have covered your problems & possible solutions, but I think they are bigger than poker if what you have been saying is true.
Got to love the USA
Are you legitimately eligible for a Canadian passport? I’m asking because you sure seem reluctant to make a quick and fun trip to Vegas to collect your winnings. Is it possible that you entered Canada on a visa in order to “chill”—meaning not get drafted—during the Russian war on Ukraine? And perhaps that visa has expired and if you leave the country you won’t be allowed to re-enter? To be clear: I sure hope I’m wrong about all that! But wow do you seem unwilling to just solve this in the easy way that everyone here keeps recommending.
You come to me to collect the money I owe you on the terms you chose.
I say sure come I welcome you.
You come and give me your banking info. I say no thanks I dont want to look at it, just fill out this form with no address and everything will be absolutely fine. I work here for 20 years and worked pretty much with every bank in North America.
My reputation is indisputable, so you agree.
Then I compose this wire transfer and without raising an eyebrow send it to fly. It just never occured to me tha
You seem to imply that Caesars should have known the potential issues that this wire is encountering in advance and any therefore they should solve any subsequent issues even if they are outside their control.
Without ascribing judgement on who has the ultimate responsibility to ensure a wire can be completed, I think the notion that whoever provided the initial wire instructions and answered any questions would have any idea about potential complications that might arise from a wire of that size going to a Canadian bank for a Russian citizen is a stretch. The person is just trying to get people to complete the wire instructions so they can move on to the next person or task.
If the wire is being held up by the financial institutions involved (this happens more than you might think as I have been doing legitimate international wires for 20+ years and the level of KYC scrutiny even for an established customer is ridiculous these days) I am pretty sure that Caesars views that as a you issue. They may think they are not supposed to provide information if they perceive the issue as potentially involving OFAC or criminal implications.
Please note I am not implying that is a real issue, but getting any company to do anything other than the bare minimum is difficult and Caesars is not going to spend any time or resources to do a deeper investigation. I wish they would, but they have little incentive if they believe the issue is outside their control or responsibility.
Why not try to cash at the cage and if something goes sideways after Caesars tells you it will work you can return and tell everyone I told you so?
One other question - I thought Russia was included in the list of countries with tax treaties so any player with a valid ITIN avoids the 30% tax. Why did you not go down that route from the beginning to avoid taxes? Even if you did not have an ITIN previously you could delay cashing out until you apply and have it granted.
I spent 11 days in Vegas instead of two days in December. Waiting for their assistance, got nothing. Now they invite me to Vegas again to make a recall, which I suspect will only slow down the process.
Before I get any official statement, I don’t want to go there.
I have a canadian passport and I’m convinced I did nothing wrong. All I want is to get some official communication with WSOP, not just vague answers from some suspicious (or underqualified) managers, nor phone talks with their customer service Cerberus.
We all love the USA, especially thousands of players who happily pay 30% tax on poker winnings. (On the other hand , you get a moral bounty for knocking out Russian online freaks)
I don’t care that much if I get to lose the money. Yes I have to grind nl500 again but that’s fine, I live a relatively balanced life.
And I know from years in poker that you get what you deserve.
Having said that, as long as poker community is silenced and submissive, I’m good.
Remember when Amaya bought out PokerStars, it killed the possibility for average players to survive and made better players even richer. This is what WSOP does to, giving you little to no room for growth with this kind of taxation.
I just want to live in a better world, where I’m not treated like garbage by big corporations. But that’s too much to ask I think.
He wont $138400
I think your first mistake was trying to do this without having a crystal-clear understanding of the tax implications - Caesar's doesn't give a **** obv, but I can only imagine an international wire from US to Canada initiated with a Russian passport could potentially raise some red flags with various government entities if any of them were to somehow catch wind of it (and I would guess this could be more likely given current sanctions against Russia from both countries). Even more so if the clerk you dealt with made a mistake filling out the form or anything like that
I also have to imagine that publicly identifying yourself on an internet forum while providing this level of detail regarding your intentions could really come back to bite you if the Canadian government was to decide you were, by their estimation, trying to commit tax evasion/fraud
Are you worried/paranoid about showing up in LV as a Russian/Canadian and having the US Treasury Department ready to take you away for questioning?
Most of the comments have covered your problems & possible solutions, but I think they are bigger than poker if what you have been saying is true.
Got to love the USA
I spent 11 days in Vegas instead of two days in December. Waiting for their assistance, got nothing. Now they invite me to Vegas again to make a recall, which I suspect will only slow down the process.
Before I get any official statement, I don’t want to go there.
I have a canadian passport and I’m convinced I did nothing wrong. All I want is to get some official communication with WSOP, not just vague answers from some suspicious (or underqualified) managers, nor phone talks with their customer
Do you not see how the USA government may perceive this?
Should of taken a check, but you didn't
https://www.pokernews.com/poker-players/...
AGAIN, I ask are you worried about OFAC or the USDT if you were to go back to LV for your check?
GL getting your money, it is YOURS, and GL/BL on finishing 48th. Have you called Andy from out of the country? What would you have done if you final tabled?
Now we are talking. Most posters here suggest that these people are basically saints and work like a swiss clock, and I should respectfully do what they say.
I don't think they've said that. The overwhelming response here has been that you tried to do something a little off the beaten path, they tried to accommodate you, and difficulties ensued that they don't really seem to have a clue how to resolve. They continue to try to offer solutions and you continually say it shouldn't be necessary just have Caesar's override the established financial network and it's controls and make your money magically appear and by the way make sure I don't have to pay any taxes on it.
You're asking way too much of the wrong people.
I think your first mistake was trying to do this without having a crystal-clear understanding of the tax implications - Caesar's doesn't give a **** obv, but I can only imagine an international wire from US to Canada initiated with a Russian passport could potentially raise some red flags with various government entities if any of them were to somehow catch wind of it (and I would guess this could be more likely given current sanctions against Russia from both countries). Even more so if the cle
I understand, mistakes happen. Although considering the circumstances I find it difficult to believe it was an unintentional mistake. But if it was indeed a mistake, why are they hiding the wire information from me? Why are they trying to push me to recall, without taking a look at the transaction first.
If I’m ineligible, or convinced of a tax fraud, is entirely different matter. This is just speculation whether I did anything wrong. Poker in Canada is not a subject to taxation, period. There were legal cases (Duhamel
Main event win) and that’s what the court decided.
My main issue is that WSOP denies to provide information which would confirm that the transfer was actually processed and is held up by my bank’s intermediary. Without it it’s just words of their CSR representative.
I want to resolve this matter as open and transparent as possible, and it’s them who are hiding behind their corporate curtains.
In fact, I could be eligible to receive social assistance (welfare payment) , but I don’t do that because I like to think that I have some moral standards.
In fact, I could be eligible to receive social assistance (welfare payment) , but I don’t do that because I like to think that I have some moral standards.
Does * 67 block your number in Canada?
Note: The person you are calling will see "Unknown Number" or "Private Name/Private Number" instead of your name and number. Call Block remains active only for the duration of your call. To have your name and number blocked, you are required to dial *67 before placing each call.
Does * 67 still work on cell phones?
How to Use *67 on an Android or iPhone. To hide your number from appearing on a recipient's phone, press *67 followed by the number you want to call. For example, *675555555555. This works even if the other person already has your number in their phone.
CALL OR DON'T ROCK THE BOAT...//
Does * 67 block your number in Canada?
Note: The person you are calling will see "Unknown Number" or "Private Name/Private Number" instead of your name and number. Call Block remains active only for the duration of your call. To have your name and number blocked, you are required to dial *67 before placing each call.
Does * 67 still work on cell phones?
How to Use *67 on an Android or iPhone. To hide your number from appearing on a recipient's phone, press *67 followed by the number you want to cal
They do have my number.
And I know that they want to call in order to smooth talk me into whatever they want. That’s what CSR vampires do, it’s their job
to use manipulative scripts and that makes them proud. So I’m perfectly happy with e-mails.
Rocking the boat is exactly my goal here. Poker should belong to people, not to ceasears entertainment. I put my poker reputation at stake here, possibly even freedom. And now they’re already taking too much time to make a decision. And in my ideal world the community should ask for the clock here.
They do have my number.
And I know that they want to call in order to smooth talk me into whatever they want. That’s what CSR vampires do, it’s their job
to use manipulative scripts and that makes them proud. So I’m perfectly happy with e-mails.
Rocking the boat is exactly my goal here. Poker should belong to people, not to ceasears entertainment. I put my poker reputation at stake here, possibly even freedom. And now they’re already taking too much time to make a decision. And in my ideal world
ALRIGHT, after 5 pages we know where you STAND on this matter. Finally go get 'em.
Lol at poker belongs to the people and not CET
No one forced you to leave your people and come play tournaments put on by CET. But you did so because if it’s one thing that CET is great at, it’s the marketing of the WSOP brand and putting on huge tournaments
I understand, mistakes happen. Although considering the circumstances I find it difficult to believe it was an unintentional mistake. But if it was indeed a mistake, why are they hiding the wire information from me? Why are they trying to push me to recall, without taking a look at the transaction first.
If I’m ineligible, or convinced of a tax fraud, is entirely different matter. This is just speculation whether I did anything wrong. Poker in Canada is not a subject to taxation, period. There we
Can you be specific about what information the WSOP / Caesars is refusing to provide you? Have you requested the MT103 associated with your wire?
This seems to be the main reason you believe something nefarious is happening. The consensus seems to be to arrange to receive your money from the cage. You seem concerned that if you ask Caesars to recall the wire that will create additional issues, but that seems like the logical next step unless you want to retain legal assistance.
I do not think you are going to get anything more from this thread. I do not think a single poster likes anything about the US tax code, but the reality is trying to work around it often leads to a different outcome then one hopes for.
I don't think they've said that. The overwhelming response here has been that you tried to do something a little off the beaten path, they tried to accommodate you, and difficulties ensued that they don't really seem to have a clue how to resolve. They continue to try to offer solutions and you continually say it shouldn't be necessary just have Caesar's override the established financial network and it's controls and make your money magically appear and by the way make sure I don't have to pay
I’m asking for wire information. This is the only thing I’m asking for. If there’s something stopping them from sharing this information, I want to know the reason.
If they can’t give me the reason, then they should claim that at this point there’s ongoing investigation on this issue. Otherwise whatever they say may just be bullshit.
They say that the money got stuck in the bank, and I have an option to get a recall. and that’s all they can tell me. And that the wire information “doesn’t exist”.
Where am I wrong?
You make it sound like they tried to help me out, but something went wrong. There’s 0.0% chance they tried to “help me out”.
More likely that I had all the rights in the world to receive the payout as a russian and ship it to any bank in the world that works with USA swift system.
Ok, fair enough. Then why are they acting so strange, refused my wire info, sent wire to Canada providing my Russian ID (probably knowing it would raise flags), refusing to provide the tracking number?
They mentioned Wells Fargo asked questions about this wire, and they gave them answers. But again they never bothered to contact me about it and ask for my Canadian address.
It just seems it is in their interest to make this payout long and complicated, don't you think?
How so? What do they benefit from it? It's just more work and more of a pain in the ass for whoever deals w wires.
The wire is complicated bc of your specific situation. I get why you're annoyed and want answers but it's not intentional from them.
More likely that I had all the rights in the world to receive the payout as a russian.
I just can’t understand why you would believe this given the current political situation.
If there was some sort of government investigation, then it is very likely they either wouldn’t have any information about or would not be permitted to given you any information they did have.
Can you be specific about what information the WSOP / Caesars is refusing to provide you? Have you requested the MT103 associated with your wire?
This seems to be the main reason you believe something nefarious is happening. The consensus seems to be to arrange to receive your money from the cage. You seem concerned that if you ask Caesars to recall the wire that will create additional issues, but that seems like the logical next step unless you want to retain legal assistance.
I do not think you
I requested wire information, specifically federal wire number. I’ll write to them about this form now.
I want to admit I got carried away a little trying to justify my point... My apologies if I hurt someone’s feelings in the process.
Now I let it out I feel better, so it was worth it. It’s debilitating when something like this happens and it brings up a lot of anxiety because you don’t know what’s going to happen next and god knows for how long.
I had problems like this in the past (nothing to do with taxes) with big companies, and I can tell you with a 1000% certainty they will not be in a rush to help me solve this. I thought this might speed up the process.
I still believe that I made a correct decision on the recall and will be waiting for things to clear up.
I think the catch for them is that if the money somehow gets arrested or
I have some problems with the US authorities, the money will eventually go back to Caesar’s . And since the payout had been processed there will be no need to send
this money to government.
So later accountants can send it to one of the many charities Caesar’s is connected with, and get some nice little bonuses in the envelopes later.
I have a confession to make. I didnt donate to wikipedia this year. fatal mistake
