Unorthodox back check-raise on flop - stupid-crazy or great situational awareness?
2/5. 9 handed. $1k max buy-in. Effective stack depths are around $1k-$1.5k, but not really pertinent in this hand.
V1 / UTG- Sitting around $1k. Somewhat new to the table. Never played with him before. Younger guy (mid-late 20's-ish). Seems capable / aggro. Sitting on hero's direct left. He's been raising and then over-folding to hero's pre-flop 3B's and 4B's pre. He's had to top off once or twice since sitting down, after losing a couple big pots when other opponents sucked out. I noticed he had a bag of black chips with him, so he's obviously a reg. Haven't seen him show down any big bluffs or make any crazy hero-calls. Seems like he's playing fairly tight, with occasional spurts of very aggro play.
V2 / BTN - hero has a ton of hours against this V. We're pretty friendly. He's young (20's), and pretty competent, yet prone to tilt when he's running bad, as he has been this session. He's stuck over $400 (I know because I lent him $400 at the table). He's fairly TAG normally, but can get very LAG when he's stuck and / or tilted. When he's in that mode, he'll call down light on flop or turn, but won't usually make too-light calls or make big bluffs on river. He's sitting on about $1400.
Hero / BB - Early 50's. Sitting around $1200-$1500. Should have a reasonably solid / aggro image. I'd done very little if any limping pre, except maybe some over-limping from the BTN or BB. Been folding a lot pre, or opening for $20, or 3B'ing, some 4B'ing. Haven't got caught making any huge bluffs recently, but have been betting thin for value, often winning, occasionally losing. Made some good check-backs and tight folds. Been mixing up my flop plays with some c-bets, check-calls, check-raises, and delayed c-bets on turn.
OTTH...
PRE - V1 opens to $20 UTG. Folds to V2 who flats on the BTN. SB folds. Hero in BB calls with T7ss.
FLOP ($60) - T84r (no spades).
V1 checks. V2 bets $30. Hero calls. V1 now check-raises to $130. V2 calls. Hero now back-check-raises to $450.
I know what you're thinking - this is the stupidest play you've ever heard of anyone making. I've never made this play before. But this was my reasoning in-game...
V1's UTG raise range should be strong, with over-pairs, and some un-paired over-cards. V1 may or may not realize V2's BTN range is going to be wider than GTO here, but I do, because I know V2 well, and I know he's somewhat tilted and trying to manufacture some wins. Getting 3:1 on a call, my BB defending range is going to be pretty wide here, especially against these two V's.
Even though it's a rainbow board, this board is going to connect with my range and BTN's range, so I would expect V1 to c-bet here a lot, definitely with his over-pairs. When he checks, V2 on the BTN bets, and I call, I'm expecting V1 to fold, or just flat call.
But when V1 x/r's, my first thought was that he's full of $hlt. I think it was his sizing and pacing, which was kind of fast. I'd have expected him to take a little more time if he had an over-pair. He's OOP to the BTN, and I'm still in the hand. Why is he only raising just over 4x?
When V2 just flat calls the x/r, I'm positive he's not that strong, and is hoping to take this pot away on turn or river.
I decided that V1 most likely had two over-cards and decided to rep an over-pair with his x/r, and V2 probably had 2nd pair or a draw, but at most, just top pair. It seemed to me that I was the player who could most likely have T8 here, and if I had T8, I would have just check-called flop against V2's bet, but would now look to raise, when the pot has been bloated to $350.
Rather than fold top pair, or call $130 OOP with just a weak top pair, with almost no chance to improve, I decided to raise big to try to take the pot down right there.
Thoughts?
I think the line itself is much better if you really don't have a raising range when V2 bets flop, but I'd assume that's bad as it lets V2 stab at it way too much when checked to.
As for the hand selection itself, as the old saying goes "It doesn't matter what you bluff with when everyone folds" ... but T9/T7 seem particularly bad hands to play this way when you are called.
Good on you for snapping your opponent off.
Sometimes I'll make a play supported by two seemingly contradictory thoughts. If I can clarify - I did think that V1/UTG has two overs when he check-raised, but I also thought that even if he had an over-pair, it would be hard for him to call my raise, because I could have all the 2P and sets on the board.
He did claim he folded an over-pair, for whatever that's worth. It's possible he did, but wasn't sure whether or not to believe him.
To be fair, I didn't snap off my opponent's pot size turn jam, I tank called. But I felt like I had a fairly easy call on the flop.
Also in my hand, the button bet/folded before the back raises, when they bet/call, they tend to be more capped, but depending on the player can still be nutted.
Before factoring in equity and fold equity on future streets (which is why we still cannot judge you play without the stacks of both villains) your bluff needs to work 56% of the time to profit. Meaning it needs to get through both villains.
I think you basically need to be sure UTG folds overpairs for your play to be profitable. If you are only 50% sure they fold overpairs, I doubt your play is profitable. Also, you could have J9s, 97s, 76s which are all 8 out straight draws that have a lot more equity vs the continue range. Considering UTG's range is mostly overpairs, I don't think blocking TT and T8s is as important as having equity or being sure they fold overpairs.
I think the line itself is much better if you really don't have a raising range when V2 bets flop, but I'd assume that's bad as it lets V2 stab at it way too much when checked to.
As for the hand selection itself, as the old saying goes "It doesn't matter what you bluff with when everyone folds" ... but T9/T7 seem particularly bad hands to play this way when you are called.
In this set-up, I generally wouldn't raise flop when V2 bets. I think the BTN is going to be stabbing a lot with worse pairs and bluffs I want to keep in. I generally don't see very many x/r's from PFR's in multi-way pots, and I wouldn't expect the UTG PFR to check-over-call very often in a spot like this, so my strong but vulnerable hands don't benefit as much from raising for protection.
If I raise flop, I won't really know what to do on a lot of turns with my unimproved 1P, or my 2P and sets. I'd rather let V2 keep the betting lead, and go for a check-raise on a turn brick or card that improves my hand. If BTN checks back turn, I can donk-lead river.
I feel like x/r'ing the flop makes it too easy for V2 to play perfectly against me, whereas check-calling flop with most or all of my range allows me to get more value for my strong hands, and occasionally get to a cheap showdown and / or steal a pot with some weaker hands.
In game, I didn't think T7 was too bad, since it blocked top set and top 2, and I could pick up equity on any 6, 7, 9, T, or J turn. What sort of hands do you think would be better?
To be fair, I didn't snap off my opponent's pot size turn jam, I tank called. But I felt like I had a fairly easy call on the flop.
Also in my hand, the button bet/folded before the back raises, when they bet/call, they tend to be more capped, but depending on the player can still be nutted.
Before factoring in equity and fold equity on future streets (which is why we still cannot judge you play without the stacks of both villains) your bluff needs to work 56% of the time to profit. Meaning it n
I think facing V2s bet, my call, V2's call of his x/r, and my back-raise, it would be really hard for V1/UTG to continue with any over-pairs. If V1 calls, V2 can still jam behind, and even if V2 folds, I'm going to be barrelling huge on a lot of turns.
I thought T7 was a reasonably good hand to do this with. I'd pick up equity on any T, 7, 6, 9 or J, and any 2, 3 or 5 would basically be a blank. I could have J9, 97, or 76 here, but I'd think those hands wouldn't want to back-check-raise, and risk V1 or V2 jamming over top.
1. I would fold pre
2. I would not range V1 so easily to overpairs and naked overs.
3. I would be happier if it was deeper but you're basically AI OTT AP if someone calls.
In this set-up, I generally wouldn't raise flop when V2 bets.
I feel like x/r'ing the flop makes it too easy for V2 to play perfectly against me, whereas check-calling flop with most or all of my range allows me to get more value for my strong hands, and occasionally get to a cheap showdown and / or steal a pot with some weaker hands.
I think it's fine calling with this hand, and I guess calling T8 gives you some value to this hand (or at least makes it more difficult for players to play against you with this hand) ... but you lose that value when you have 76s. Also feel like you lose a lot of value with T8/88 vs. KT/etc. on a lot of turns.
In game, I didn't think T7 was too bad, since it blocked top set and top 2, and I could pick up equity on any 6, 7, 9, T, or J turn. What sort of hands do you think would be better?
There's three 8 out straight draws J9/97/76, even if we are bluffing more than that I'd probably prefer blocking middle pair instead of top pair. With any pair bluff I'd _much_ prefer having a BDFD to go with it.
Yes, you can pickup equity on the turn vs. QQ but it's much harder to call that than it is J9 which is praying you hit 2 pair (and your read was nobody had JJ+).
Also hitting a T on the turn and we are in a weird spot where if we bet and get called villain has to be calling light.
Just T9/T7 no BDFD seem the worst of all options, we block draws, we don't have great runouts for our hand, and if villain continues on the runouts that help us we'll often be drawing very thin (or getting called light).
When you say "Effective stack depths are around $1k-$1.5k, but not really pertinent in this hand." in your OP, we already know that both of them folded or no more money went into the pot on turn/river. That doesn't necessarily help the discussion.
The logic of "V2 probably had 2nd pair or a draw, but at most, just top pair." works way better if you don't actually block top pair, one of the more likely 2nd pairs (87) and one of the two OESD (97). Trying to fold out hands that you block significantly changes the numbers. Depending on his exact range and suits you're probably blocking 1/3+ of his folding range.
I like it actually. The check/raise on the flop after a flat is like a reverse-squeeze that easily could have come together based on V2 bet and your call - and you're kinda just calling BS on the play. Do I think you're going to run into two pairs and sets that will shove over the top of you 75% of the time? Probably. But with your reads of the players I think it's fine. You had a read, trusted it, pulled the trigger. That's poker.
I think it's fine calling with this hand, and I guess calling T8 gives you some value to this hand (or at least makes it more difficult for players to play against you with this hand) ... but you lose that value when you have 76s. Also feel like you lose a lot of value with T8/88 vs. KT/etc. on a lot of turns.
There's three 8 out straight draws J9/97/76, even if we are bluffing more than that I'd probably prefer blocking middle pair instead of top pair. With any pair bluff I'd _much_ prefer havin
Honestly, it's hard for me to separate my experience playing against V2 specifically from how I think I'd be playing against any random opponent in V2's spot. I know V2 will stab a lot on the flop, but give up with his air-balls and weaker 1P hands on later streets. So I can call his flop bets a lot, without worrying about what I'll do if he continues to barrel.
I kind of think that's how most V's would play the BTN here - stabbing with any 1P, giving up o a later street if they don't improve. I think the value in waiting until the turn to x/r with sets and 2P is that it helps disguise our hand, and also makes it harder for V's to continue when they haven't improved.
So we end up in situations where we flopped 2P or a set and have V's 1P and worse 2P dominated, or we have 1P or 2P when V's draws haven't come in yet, or we flopped a good draw that got there on the turn.
I tend not to over-play 8-out draws on the flop in spots like this, because our draws are somewhat obvious, and V's can relentlessly raise us with all their value hands, and a lot of bluffs.
All that said - I'm definitely not defending my play as being theoretically sound. This one was almost entirely driven by my reads on the two V's.
When you say "Effective stack depths are around $1k-$1.5k, but not really pertinent in this hand." in your OP, we already know that both of them folded or no more money went into the pot on turn/river. That doesn't necessarily help the discussion.
The logic of "V2 probably had 2nd pair or a draw, but at most, just top pair." works way better if you don't actually block top pair, one of the more likely 2nd pairs (87) and one of the two OESD (97). Trying to fold out hands that you block significant
Yup. In-game, I wasn't looking at the situation that way. I wasn't thinking about the way my hand blocked middle pair or draws. I should have.
In retrospect, my specific hand probably wasn't the best for making the play I did. I knew when I was making it that it could be a massive punt. It was really all about my reads of the two V's, and my view of the situation.
It was fairly reckless, and I got lucky that neither V had a strong enough hand to call me.
I like it actually. The check/raise on the flop after a flat is like a reverse-squeeze that easily could have come together based on V2 bet and your call - and you're kinda just calling BS on the play. Do I think you're going to run into two pairs and sets that will shove over the top of you 75% of the time? Probably. But with your reads of the players I think it's fine. You had a read, trusted it, pulled the trigger. That's poker.
I was definitely calling BS on both V's.
I've played with V2 on the BTN a ton. I could never fold top pair, even with a weak kicker, when he stabs on that flop.
That was my first time playing with V1, but I pay A LOT of attention to what my opponents are doing, so I felt like I had a fairly reliable read on him. I felt very sure that if he really had a strong hand, he either would have c-bet when I checked to him, or just over-called behind me.
Thank God neither V called BS on me.
>writes full novel on player descriptions
>hand is just a trivial preflop fold
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Why are live players like this
Didn't even read postflop
