QQ facing Check raise shove
1/3 NL. No good reads here as V in this hand has only been at the table about 20 mins. Hasn't really been involved in anything yet. Older Asian male with about $350. 2 black chips and a mix of green and red so possibly someone that just came from the pit games. Hero has V covered.
V UTG raises to $10. Folds to hero who 3 bets to $30. V calls. Heads up
Flop ( $60) 7c 5s 3c. V checks. Hero bets $40. V raises all in.
Hero?
What are the suits of your queens? Having the Q of clubs blocks a lot of the club draws you would want him to be doing this with. Absent of any reads, I think you need to call without Q of clubs as he can be doing this for value with worse overpairs and with plenty of flush draws/combo draws. With Q of clubs it’s closer but it’s likely still a call as he shouldn’t have AA or KK as played, sets likely raise smaller, he shouldn’t have any two pair, and he might be doing this with worse for value
What are the suits of your queens? Having the Q of clubs blocks a lot of the club draws you would want him to be doing this with. Absent of any reads, I think you need to call without Q of clubs as he can be doing this for value with worse overpairs and with plenty of flush draws/combo draws. With Q of clubs it’s closer but it’s likely still a call as he shouldn’t have AA or KK as played, sets likely raise smaller, he shouldn’t have any two pair, and he might be doing thi
Sorry. 2 red Q
Feels like a call. He shouldn't really ever have 64 (or 75/53), and does he open UTG and then call a 3bet with 55/33?
There are going to be loads of overpairs and loads of flush draws with two overcards, many of which you're in great shape against. Sure some of them have loads of equity against you like are 98/AKcc but even so this feels like a solid call particularly if there are ever any smaller overpairs in there. Also does he really just stuff it in like this with top set?
I snap call. We are sometimes up against a set but a lot of players will just commit their stacks with any overpair here. We also see this even more often with FD semibluffs. We can discount AA/KK with no preflop 4-bet.
1/3 NL. No good reads here as V in this hand has only been at the table about 20 mins. Hasn't really been involved in anything yet. Older Asian male with about $350. 2 black chips and a mix of green and red so possibly someone that just came from the pit games. Hero has V covered.
V UTG raises to $10. Folds to hero who 3 bets to $30. V calls. Heads up
Flop ( $60) 7c 5s 3c. V checks. Hero bets $40. V raises all in.
Hero?
Needs to decide for himself how much variance he wants in his poker play. Also, needs to think about what hands the opponent has, the requency of them and what of that he can beat.
Folding is pretty bad at this depth. V can have smaller overpairs and draws quite a bit.
Vs an unknown no way I'm folding.
With no reads at all, I think we have to call. It's possible this guy just got his a$$ handed to him at Blackjack or Baccarat, he's tilted, and he's looking to gamble or go home.
That said, I've been in this spot a few times, against V's like this, when I c-bet over-pairs or top pairs as the PFR, and they x/r-jam. It's rare that I see them doing this with 88-JJ, or just a draw. It won't shock me if this guy flopped a set.
My observation with the older Asian guys is that they're either super-nitty or super-loose, but they love to trap, and won't x/r-jam without a very strong hand. This may seem too prejudicial, but against this V, I could see making a very nitty fold here.
I don't know -- older Asian guy does this? From my experience, they are pretty tight. I'd need to get a feel for the vibe he's giving (tight or gamble) before I call here.
Weird replies. We're not that shallow at a 5.33 SPR. Folding seems somewhat reasonable. Its what? 420 out there, 280 to call? 40% needed? Anyone saying he does this with TT is a loon. I fold.
I snap call. We are sometimes up against a set but a lot of players will just commit their stacks with any overpair here. We also see this even more often with FD semibluffs. We can discount AA/KK with no preflop 4-bet.
No one at my game in my life x/r jams 3x pot with any overpair here. You're dreaming.
No one at my game in my life x/r jams 3x pot with any overpair here. You're dreaming.
Guess you’re in the wrong games 😉
Many players at 1/3 treat overpairs like the nuts on a low ragged board. They don’t want to “play poker” and just shrug and hope H has AK.
And again, semibluffs do this a ton.
I would not narrow V’s range to only sets here.
Spoiler
I have a habit of often thinking out loud when I have a difficult decision to make. I don't know if its a bad thing or not, but it seams to help me organize my thoughts. So out loud I start eliminating hands. AA - no KK - no 2P - no. Set - probably not, draw - maybe. V then says you can't fold KK here. I was leaning to a call and for some reason his speech made me more confident. So I call. V starts yelling for a club. Run out is clean. V briefly shows his hand before mucking and is 2 small clubs but I can't see which ones exactly.
Guess you’re in the wrong games 😉
Many players at 1/3 treat overpairs like the nuts on a low ragged board. They don’t want to “play poker” and just shrug and hope H has AK.
And again, semibluffs do this a ton.
I would not narrow V’s range to only sets here.
Same here. I've seen JJ/TT in this spot so many times because they want to see a safe flop first and then protect their hand from your AK.
Nice call!
Yeah if we’re over 150 BBs deep it’s marginal, but bet-folding at your depth is a clear mistake.
You guys do realize that if V had the 5c in his hand or most of the small clubs, he was ahead. Not saying the call was wrong, but V's shove probably was pretty good. Now, the play pre was terrible.
You guys do realize that if V had the 5c in his hand or most of the small clubs, he was ahead. Not saying the call was wrong, but V's shove probably was pretty good. Now, the play pre was terrible.
Yes. And in scenarios where I am contemplating a call versus a range in which high equity draws are the best case scenario for me, I will advocate for a fold. But as I’ve mentioned, I do believe weaker over pairs, draws with somewhat less equity, and even random bluffs are occasionally in villains range here.
Yes. And in scenarios where I am contemplating a call versus a range in which high equity draws are the best case scenario for me, I will advocate for a fold. But as I’ve mentioned, I do believe weaker over pairs, draws with somewhat less equity, and even random bluffs are occasionally in villains range here.
As I wrote before, I'd like to get a feel for V. I don't know any players who would do this with worse than AcKc/Qc (or the small XcXc hands that are ahead).
You guys do realize that if V had the 5c in his hand or most of the small clubs, he was ahead. Not saying the call was wrong, but V's shove probably was pretty good. Now, the play pre was terrible.
This was one of the main reasons for posting this hand. Even AKcc I think V is favored. If I had AA or KK its a different story. The call worked for me in the end but I was second guessing after.
I think I call here vs someone who came from the pits, but this is hardly a snap. He can still have bigger pairs, and we’re barely ahead or slightly behind his combo draws.
I do think some will shove smaller overpairs which makes it a call vs unknown.
I agree with Javanewt that I'd feel better making the decision with some reads. The only decision-influencing info we had here was that the guy MIGHT have come in from the pits, making it possible he's tilted and looking to gamble it up before calling it a night.
He didn't have it this time. A lot of times, he will, especially if we've got an aggro image, or he's just been playing tight, waiting for a good spot to x/r-jam over the PFR's c-bet.
His speech-play is interesting. His statement is textbook "strong means weak", but most opponents who are bluffing won't want to risk doing that, and it can often be an attempt at a reverse-tell by someone hoping for a call. I'm guessing there was something about how he said it that pushed you off the fence.
He probably had 86cc or 42cc. If he opened with either, clearly he was indeed looking to gamble.
His speech-play is interesting. His statement is textbook "strong means weak", but most opponents who are bluffing won't want to risk doing that, and it can often be an attempt at a reverse-tell by someone hoping for a call. I'm guessing there was something about how he said it that pushed you off the fence.
This definitely is true. I think it was my talking that made him chime in. As I was eliminating hands he didn’t have I think he felt he needed to do something to sway me as I was getting closer to what he did have. It was the way he spoke as well as his demeanor. He sat up straight and faced me directly. I felt it was an act to show confidence when he wasn’t confident at all. I don’t know, I wish I could point to a specific physical tell and share it with everyone here. But I guess it was more just everything combined. From the betting to the speech to the chip denominations. I appreciate all the responses.
