Covid-19 Discussion
Has the wisdom and courage to realize that the cure has now become worse than the disease. It's time to open up. Stop moving the ball.
Hospital systems have not been overwhelmed.
Ventilators are not in shortage.
Treatments are being developed.
There is no cure or vaccine. This is not going away for four years.
The devastation of the cure:
Suicide rates picking up.
Massive economic devastation which causes depression, anxiety, obesity, again increase in suicide rates and directly impacts poorer economic areas.
Alcohol sales up 51%.
Domestic Abuse on the uprise
Child abuse on the uprise.
Hospitals that do not have COVID related issues are forced to lay off doctors and nurses as there are not enough patients to economically support it, meaning they won't have the staff to deal with COVID outbreaks.
Michael Avenatti gets released from prison
We all did our part. We sheltered (here in Pennsylvania for 5 weeks already).
Open the office buildings. Open the hair saloons. Get rid of stupid mask laws.
Continue to monitor outbreaks and in areas hospital systems become threatened, reenact tougher guidelines.
LET'S GET BACK TO WORK!
And stop shaming people that want common sense solutions. Waiting for a vaccine is stupid and unpractical.
Yeah, I'm the monster. Meanwhile you are just lying every post. Buzz off.
Story 1 was a curfew violation. Curfews are not living in captivity.
Story 2 doesn't even look like a story describing living in captivity.
Story 3 is the closest, but people were still allowed out to do essential things. So no, not captivity.
So, either lying, spamming pointless stories, or you just don't know what captivity means.
Which is it?
for any decent human being (ie people who have freedom as their most important value in life), living in captivity is a lot lot worse than death, so house arresting someone for a month is worse than removing a month of life expectancy.
house arresting (locking down) everyone in country for a day then, is akin to taking approx 1/(365*50) [50 being the expected years of life expectancy left from the median person in most western countries] people and shooting them cold blood in the head against a w
I just went back and re-read this post. I'm being honest here, I actually feel like I'm picking on a mentally ill person at this point. This is some of the most absurd bullsh I've ever seen in my life. You clowns that think this guy is "dominating the covid thread" are really behind this guy? He lies in every single post and then tops it off with absolute cod-swallop like 1 day of lockdown is equivalent to shooting 2,000 people in the head. Go team, I guess.
jfc
I just went back and re-read this post. I'm being honest here, I actually feel like I'm picking on a mentally ill person at this point. This is some of the most absurd bullsh I've ever seen in my life.
ye I understand you cannot comprehend how disastrous it can be to steal a day of life from 38 million people. how it is equivalent to government mandated assassinations of thousands. but it is.
because if you did, you would have never even come close to defend lockdowns
ye I understand you cannot comprehend how disastrous it can be to steal a day of life from 38 million people. how it is equivalent to government mandated assassinations of thousands. but it is.
because if you did, you would have never even come close to defend lockdowns
deleted because I legitimately think there is an issue here and I'm going to stop responding to this guy
So, it's only one article. I can show you many articles/studies which claim the opposite.
Its one article that cites numerous studies.
There were over 170 mask studies since Covid hit that shows that masks are effective at reducing the spread of Covid at a rate of like 50% to 70% on average.
The only study I saw that said masks were ineffective was revoked form the Medical Journal about three months after it was published because it was based on false data.
I like your avatar Gorgon. It suits you.
Its one article that cites numerous studies.
There were over 170 mask studies since Covid hit that shows that masks are effective at reducing the spread of Covid at a rate of like 50% to 70% on average.
The only study I saw that said masks were ineffective was revoked form the Medical Journal about three months after it was published because it was based on false data.
Well, here's a few for you.
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/...
https://swprs.org/face-masks-evidence/
5 NIH/National Library of Medicine studies from 2004-2020 all finding verifiable health effects from wearing a face mask, including scientifically verified reduction in blood oxygen level:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29395560...
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32590322...
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15340662...
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26579222...
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31159777...
Cloth Mask Study
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article...
SOME of the mask studies on efficacy:
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/...
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/...
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NE...
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fu...
https://www.cmaj.ca/content/188/8/567
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article...
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19216002...
https://aaqr.org/articles/aaqr-13-06-oa-...
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article...
https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/bio...
https://link.springer.com/article/10.100...
https://www.journalofhospitalinfection.c...
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article...
https://web.archive.org/web/202007171418...
https://www.nap.edu/catalog/25776/rapid-...
https://www.nap.edu/read/25776/chapter/1...
https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/5/1...
https://academic.oup.com/annweh/article/...
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article...
https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/...
https://link.springer.com/article/10.100...
Its one article that cites numerous studies.
There were over 170 mask studies since Covid hit that shows that masks are effective at reducing the spread of Covid at a rate of like 50% to 70% on average.
The only study I saw that said masks were ineffective was revoked form the Medical Journal about three months after it was published because it was based on false data.
Can you clarify what you mean with that 50 to 70% reduction? Because everyone has been exposed to COVID multiple times even in places with full mask mandates for long (like say Italy), so how is that a reduction, of what? Everyone going to get COVID anyway no matter the NPIs, can we agree on this at least?
Yeah, I'm the monster. Meanwhile you are just lying every post. Buzz off.
Story 1 was a curfew violation. Curfews are not living in captivity.
Story 2 doesn't even look like a story describing living in captivity.
Story 3 is the closest, but people were still allowed out to do essential things. So no, not captivity.
So, either lying, spamming pointless stories, or you just don't know what captivity means.
Which is it?
"People can eat when caged so that's not captivity", incredible take.
Here Luciom …
Maybe this will bring a bit of “confidence” in neutrality ?
Have fun reading ….
The Canadian Military Journal is the official quarterly peer-reviewed academic journal of the Canadian Forces and the Department of National Defence.
So they end up with identical numbers compared to areas that locked down a lot more, and of course if they get less cases before, they get more later, because everyone is going to get covid no matter what you do lol which is the main point behind the idea that all NPIs are completely insane .
You can only start having a point if after complete reopening you end up with a lot less buried people in total than other areas, in which case we should analyze tradeoffs.
But if you lockdown more than me and your people at the end have died the same as mine, that's a complete failure on your side, and the fact that some waves were harder for me is absolutely irrelevant
I guess the only positive thing about the pandemic is the right stopped blabbering about hilary's emails.
It was a pandemic. JFC move on.
So they end up with identical numbers compared to areas that locked down a lot more, and of course if they get less cases before, they get more later, because everyone is going to get covid no matter what you do lol which is the main point behind the idea that all NPIs are completely insane .
You can only start having a point if after complete reopening you end up with a lot less buried people in total than other areas, in which case we should analyze tradeoffs.
But if you lockdown more than me an
There are too many confounding variables in the regional differences of COVID-19 to draw any conclusions from observational studies on the effectiveness of the lockdowns, both for or against, not the least of which was adherence. The argument for these interventions were rational at the time - to slow the spread of the disease during the interval when the pandemic overwhelmed medical resources and before the vaccines could be deployed. Like any emergency intervention there is the subjective application of risk vs reward based on incomplete information.
Getting more specific, I believe the early lockdowns were a no-brainer because the extent of the disease wasn't known. After that the lockdowns should've ended much sooner than they did.
There are too many confounding variables in the regional differences of COVID-19 to draw any conclusions from observational studies on the effectiveness of the lockdowns, both for or against, not the least of which was adherence. The argument for these interventions were rational at the time - to slow the spread of the disease during the interval when the pandemic overwhelmed medical resources and before the vaccines could be deployed. Like any emergency intervention there is the subjective appl
But we aren't comparing Canada and the Philippines or some silly pair like that, we are comparing Canadian provinces.
The argument might have hold some reason in the first months, which is why I wouldn't try for crimes people who enacted lockdowns and mandated freedom destroying rules (often to the point of unconstitutionality in many countries) in march-may 2020.
But calling an action which wasn't in any single pandemic plan worldwide a "no-brainer" is wrong.
COVID arrival wasn't a novel, unprecedented health event. It was just a pandemic of a very contagious disease with a dangerousness we quickly assessed at "a lot lower than the Spanish flu" level.
Keep in mind that normal countries had pandemic plans for Spanish flu level gravity pandemics in place.
Meaning they absolutely, adamantly didn't plan to lockdown in the sense that it happened for COVID, is a disease 2% lethal for young people appeared.
Some NPIs were listed in the plans. Very strict border control, quarantine of ships/planes entering the country, school closures sometimes were listed (but for weeks at the very most, not months).
Some "large public gathering limitation" was listed in some plans.
Absolutely no stay at home order, no house arresting of contacts of positive cases and so on.
Basically what Sweden did was what the totality of the accumulated worldwide knowledge at the time, the absolutely normal, expected response no country should have deviated from.
Check what Ferguson said, "china allowed us to lockdown", they literally used the actions of one of the most heinous, evil genocidal dictatorship in world history to justify actions in western countries with absolutely no historical precedent.
https://unherd.com/thepost/neil-ferguson...
An emergency is the worst possible moment to deviate from accumulated previous knowledge, you don't take unprecedented decisions with a very normal emergency, and yes it was normal, it was less lethal than the Spanish flu in YLL terms for the population so absolutely within the parameters of something we had a long time to plan about.
And we never had planned to lock down with militaries in the streets checking if you had an "essential reason" to be out ffs, even for a diseases that could have killed healthy, young people in droves
But we aren't comparing Canada and the Philippines or some silly pair like that, we are comparing Canadian provinces.
The argument might have hold some reason in the first months, which is why I wouldn't try for crimes people who enacted lockdowns and mandated freedom destroying rules (often to the point of unconstitutionality in many countries) in march-may 2020.
But calling an action which wasn't in any single pandemic plan worldwide a "no-brainer" is wrong.
COVID arrival wasn't a novel, unpreced
There were large differences between states in the USA so not sure why anyone would be surprised there would be differences between provinces of Canada.
Claiming we had prior experience with pandemics is like saying we know how prostate cancer works so we can apply the same knowledge to pancreatic cancer, even though the former has such low mortality rate they're actually now considering reclassifying it as non-cancer, while the other has 12% 5-year survivor rate.
Again, observational studies have far too many confounders to draw conclusions from. That's why they're considered the lowest quality of all medical research.
I guess the only positive thing about the pandemic is the right stopped blabbering about hilary's emails.
It was a pandemic. JFC move on.
COVID mismanagement was the worst man made disaster in peacetime world history.
Move on? We need to change the structure of the state in order to guarantee that never again lockdowns and the rest of the disastrous man made decisions can happen, without exception.
If an actually lethal disease appears, something that kills a young, normal health person every 20, and half the frail over80, our collective problem won't be how to convince people to stay at home: it will be how to avoid starvation and death of cold if winter because essential workers wouldn't come out to work.
There is no scenario where society needs to enforce NPIs for a pandemic, because if the disease is actually lethal enough people don't go out, and if it isn't so lethal, then let people get it and move on.
The "hospital collapse" thing was a nonsense as well. If for 2 weeks you have no hospitals working that's bad but still infinitely less bad than locking down is.
People just die a little more for 2-3 weeks then we are done.
There were large differences between states in the USA so not sure why anyone would be surprised there would be differences between provinces of Canada.
Claiming we had prior experience with pandemics is like saying we know how prostate cancer works so we can apply the same knowledge to pancreatic cancer, even though the former has such low mortality rate they're actually now considering reclassifying it as non-cancer, while the other has 12% 5-year survivor rate.
Again, observational studies hav
Freedom limitating actions predicated on science require heavy preponderance of data to be taken.
Especially because you claim we still have roughly no clue of the efficacy of mandating NPIs (tbh I believe we do, and they don't work at all) , that should be enough to make mandating them absolutely illegal.
You need to be quite certain of a large positive effect even to start thinking of mandating such absurd freedom limitating NPIs.
Take sexual transmitted diseases.
We know, as a certainty, using condoms greatly reduce the contagion risk.
We have tests to prove if you are infected & contagious, for many of them.
Most STD are *a lot worse than COVID* for the under 60.
Yet we don't mandate condom use for occasional sex, we don't legally mandate testing to partners of people found infected, we don't mandate a single thing.
COVID mismanagement was the worst man made disaster in peacetime world history.
Move on? We need to change the structure of the state in order to guarantee that never again lockdowns and the rest of the disastrous man made decisions can happen, without exception.
If an actually lethal disease appears, something that kills a young, normal health person every 20, and half the frail over80, our collective problem won't be how to convince people to stay at home: it will be how to avoid starvation and
Lots of subjective reasoning here with selective recollection. Hospitals were overwhelmed for far more than 2 weeks, and unless you were an ICU patient at the time I don't think you can appreciate what that means when you're in need of live-saving medical care. Anyone who claims serious mistakes weren't made during the pandemic is engaged in magical thinking, as much as those who might claim public health policy was a complete disaster. It's not useful to speak in those stark polar terms, nor is it accurate.
Lots of subjective reasoning here with selective recollection. Hospitals were overwhelmed for far more than 2 weeks, and unless you were an ICU patient at the time I don't think you can appreciate what that means when you're in need of live-saving medical care. Anyone who claims serious mistakes weren't made during the pandemic is engaged in magical thinking, as much as those who might claim public health policy was a complete disaster. It's not useful to speak in those stark polar terms, nor is
There were places with no hospitals being overwhelmed.
Others which had weeks of tragedy.
Overall in 2020-21 hospitals were used less than a normal year though, in all western countries, just check the numbers.
It's not that I am saying hospitals being under stress is worth 0, it's that the societal damage of lockdowns is so big, it puts hospital overwhelming cost to shame.
Given Sweden exists we can speak in easy, stark polar terms: most countries acted worse than the worst possible nightmare libertarians have of badly managed state power, they were part of the problem and not of the solution for the most part (as it's really often the case with public intervention in all spheres of life), and we need to learn from this and put constitutional bans in place to avoid something similar ever happening again.
There were places with no hospitals being overwhelmed.
Others which had weeks of tragedy.
Overall in 2020-21 hospitals were used less than a normal year though, in all western countries, just check the numbers.
It's not that I am saying hospitals being under stress is worth 0, it's that the societal damage of lockdowns is so big, it puts hospital overwhelming cost to shame.
Given Sweden exists we can speak in easy, stark polar terms: most countries acted worse than the worst possible nightmare liber
Of course there were regions where hospitals weren't overwhelmed - what about that do you consider to be useful information?
And yet again, describing regional differences in the pandemic doesn't yield any actionable or conclusive data because there are simply far too many confounders to make it so.
Freedom limitating actions predicated on science require heavy preponderance of data to be taken.
Especially because you claim we still have roughly no clue of the efficacy of mandating NPIs (tbh I believe we do, and they don't work at all) , that should be enough to make mandating them absolutely illegal.
You need to be quite certain of a large positive effect even to start thinking of mandating such absurd freedom limitating NPIs.
Take sexual transmitted diseases.
We know, as a certainty, using c
You need to be quite certain that a new disease of unknown origin or mortality is well understood before limiting public health policy to stop its spread.
