Hero call when V's line doesn't make sense?

I'm mostly repeating what others have already said, but anyway ...

Preflop: 3b with A5s is solver-approved. However, against a V considered "splashy", I'd go for an exploitative call: not worth 3bet-ing this hand if we don't have fold equity.

As played, flop: I don't hate the cbet although, without any backdoor, checking back looks totally fine.

As played, turn: don't see any reason to overbet. If you want to charge draws, you can go way smaller. By overbetting, you are turning your hand into a bluff, against a splashy player and with very thin equity when called. Now, in this specific case, V checks/shoves your overbet!! Ok, he MIGHT be bluffing sometimes, or even putting you on a draw and so pushing some 1 pair hand, but even in this case, he's quite often ahead. Plus, he can easily have all the sets (apart from 44) and straights.

Overall, I think you've kind of overplayed your hand so far, and you would need an extremely precise read on V to call down.

*screams fold*

I would definitely check the flop on a board that is indifferent at best, with no backdoors and some showdown value.

When you go big I suppose you tie yourself to going for the big overbet, so yeah your turn bet seems fine as played. But I'm not on the habit of bluffing and then calling when my bluff gets raised.

If I had to guess a hand, apart from the obvious sets it would be something like 66/65

I expected to get flamed for this one. This forum doesn't disappoint.

As I was tanking, I admit I got wrapped up thinking about why he check-jammed the 4d. I didn't think he had much thick value in his range, so he seemed to be repping very thin.

It seemed to me that he must have picked up equity somehow. Most likely he either improved to a pair + draw (A4hh), pair + OESD/FDFD (A6hh), or FDFD + SD (A2hh, A3hh, A8hh), or he just had some random un-paired nut flush draw and decided to go with it.

Against that range, without trying to do all the math, I guestimated I was a 2:1 favorite, and flicked in the call.

Thanks all for playing along. Despite playing that hand terribly, I managed to grind my way back to having a small profit on the session.

FUN EPILOGUE - V moved one table over shortly after this hand. Shortly after that, the bad beat hit at his new table, and V's table share was over $11k.

Others at my table confirmed the guy was apparently just an insane luck box.

So your thought is that he.....

1. See's you 3 bet him
2. Sees you bet the flop
3. Sees you massively overbet the turn

His thought is that you have nothing strong so he tries to bluff? My other question would be what does the overbet get you here?

You're giving him too much credit for trying to range me. From watching this guy play for 2-3 hours, that's not what he was doing.

I thought he was putting me on 1P, probably an over-pair, and he was just spaz-raising with a hand that could catch up and make the nuts, while trying to rep a stronger hand, which didn't make any sense, which is why I called.

My over-bet gets value from his un-paired draws and denies equity when he folds. His opening range seemed pretty wide, as did his flop and turn calling range, especially when an opponent bet less than pot on turn. I was planning to jam on a brick runout, a 5, or an ace.

My first instinct was to fold. But like I said, as soon as I started thinking about it, his line didn't make much if any sense. Yes, he had a weak top pair, which beats my hand, but my read wasn't too far off. Despite having a stronger hand than mine, and stronger than I was giving him credit for, he didn't have any of the thick value hands that a good player might play this way.

He was bluffing, but with a better hand. I was bluff-catching, and made a loose call. The way this was played, I think this particular V has way more bluffs than thick value here.

Is anyone here taking his line with J9cc?

Of course not, but you’ve said multiple times that he was a bad player (and he gets worse each post you make—I suspect pretty soon he’ll have been playing blind), and bad players do that **** with top pair all the time. It’s why they’re bad!

If anyone wants my address so they can stop by and beat it into me, how badly I played this one, let me know. I'll be around all day tomorrow.

Look, I made a bad call. I think I had good reasons. Next time I'll remember I'm not that smart and fold.

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Why do you post hands if you just want to get fluffed, getting all defensive when people criticize your play. Supposed to learn from it.

It's all good. I'm not upset. I was laughing at my own play and the unanimous hate for how I played this one.

I hero called. I was wrong. I was hoping anyone might see it my way, agree he was FOS, and likewise call.

I'll try to post less ridiculous hands. It'll be hard, because most of the bad plays I make are ridiculous. All the others are pretty standard and not worth posting.

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It's great that you think about hands so deeply, but this one you way overthought. It's one thing to hero call, but it's another thing to hero call w/ bottom pair that can't beat most bluffs. You might be better served by using your gut a little more and not thinking quite so much -- you are thinking yourself into bad situations 😉

I would’ve played Jc9c the same

Yes. Had this guy stayed at the table, I'd have been looking to v-bet him to death. In retrospect, it was absolutely an "f it" jam, as played.

Hope to see you at the tables!

I definitely over-thought this one. First instinct was to insta-fold. Leveled myself into a call. In retrospect, I should have realized he was as spewy as he was, and waited for a better spot. I think most half-way decent players aren't jamming J9 there.

great thread.

punt ingame. ascribe 10 paragraph thought process to villain you played <1 hour with leading to massive deviations thats entirely projection / incorrect. be defensive with everyone giving you feedback in the thread. get evidence from results you're wrong (him shoving weak TP makes your turn play insane torch). ignore all of this, learn nothing, and conclude thread by reiterating villain is bad / a fish / lucky.

fwiw at 150 bb solve on gtowizard (which mimics the spr and sizing here), calling off a5 is a nearly 50 bb mistake at equilibrium. this isn't a small mistake, its an absolute huge ev error. like i cannot over stress enough that usually you only see whales make plays with this amount of ev loss in a single node. turn is also a pure check with your hand at100, 150, and 200 bb solves. his mistakes in the hand make your play worse not better as you're incentivizing him to do exactly what he did (jam depolarized range / made hands into you). it also kind of feels like you dont understand equity ie you're trying to count villains bluff combos vs value while overlooking that his bluffs (if he has any) have like 30-40% (or *much* more if he ever jams 7xhh, 66, 76 type stuff) vs your hand whereas his value you have like 0-10% (generally 0). here his spaz has 90% vs you. it's like youre trying to play turn on a super dynamic board in a low spr situation like its a river 0/1 bluff catch spot vs a precisely balanced polarized range and you got absolutely wrecked for it.

****in hell, fold. It doesnt realky even matter his bluff %, because his complete air bluffs have 6 outs and otherwise youre basically dead.

He could have a slowplayed set (most likely holdings here is JJ), combo draw, (Ah6h for example), pair + OESD (67, including 67hh), turned 2p (54) or straight (86). Or he could just be protecting his AJ

Also if youre so confident he cant have a big hand when he called the flop, why not just check and get to showdown?

I dont hate turning bottom pair into a bluff. The flop bet is perfectly fine. I dont love the turn bet, but not terrible.

thanks a lot reading this , in am with coffee thats now all over my screen, lol ,

best post of the week !!!!!!

the thing with really bad players is they often make the right plays for the wrong reasons

man that hero call

I do appreciate your posting this hand, giving your thought process, and admitting it was a bad call. Good to see hands/honesty like that here.

What I'm hearing you say is "great thread".

When the line makes no sense as value, it's weighted towards value because everyone's afraid of making "non-sensible" bluff lines. Ever seen the c/call, c/call, massive donk bet on a blank river line be anything short of the nuts when played by a fish? Alternatively, ever heard the reasoning "I can't bluff here, I rep nothing" after the exact same line, meaning the player decides against bluffing because their line until that point was passive?

Even if it's weighted towards bluffs here, it would be nice to actually beat the bluffs and not get destroyed by 66 anyway because you're only playing the 3rd pair no draw yourself.

There's also not much here in this that fails to make sense. You can very sensibly call flop and shove turn with anything that's a good pair or better. A lot of problems with the decision and the reasoning to call here with A5!

I should have folded. My first instinct was to fold. I should have bet smaller on flop and just checked back turn. I got way out in front of my skis on this one.

As soon as I started tanking, "better to make a bad call than a bad fold" went through my head, and I started looking for his bluffs, because even though I hadn't been playing with him very long, I've seen a lot of guys just like him, and I was very confident in my read, that he wouldn't play a very strong hand this way.

When I flicked in the call, he didn't look happy about it - sort of rolled his eyes as he looked skyward. I asked if he was on a flush draw, and he sheepishly said, "No, I just have a jack." I did a quick double-take when he said it. When I mucked my hand, he did an emphatic "YES!" fist-pump. Clearly, he thought he was bluffing when he jammed.

I changed seats a little while later, and was talking to the guy next to me, who said he couldn't believe it either. Without telling him what I had, I told him I put V on a flush draw. He said he was expecting to see V either turn over a set or a flush draw, never just a weak top pair.

I mean you did bet 40% of your stack on a draw heavy board, makes perfect sense for Jx to jam to deny equity from potentially bad rivers.

Honestly there should be no value hand that would go for this sizing on this turn (with the hj open co 3bet configuration) its mostly just draws that are looking for folds.

P.s: your little comment to hope to see me at the tables is cute, i hope to see you too 😉

Does the Solver like the Turn overbet (with A5) if the Turn was a complete brick—like an offsuit deuce?

Surprised to learn it wasn’t the right play here. Still learning!