LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)
Very impressed with the minute sequence where LeBron clearly lost the ball headed to the rim, heat got the ball anyway and scored, then he elbows his defender in the chin, drawing a defensive foul and stern talking to from the official and hitting a 3.
It's these ref assisted 5 point swings in close games that truly bring out the best in great players.
Link to post of why Elon Musk is the true GOAT: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showp...
The thread that will go on for years..........
vs.
they measure more than on-paper talent and are often a better reflection of a chemistry or brand of ball advantage, which is dictated by the 1st option's skillset.
Let me get this straight:
The Bulls look not that great with MJ but without the triangle: MJ's cast is trash
The Bulls look great with MJ with the triangle: MJ's skillset makes the triangle possible
The Bulls look great without MJ with the triangle: the triangle makes marginal players look better
The triangle leads to 3 titles with Shaq as first option and 2 titles with Kobe as first option: ???
Does this sound like a reasonable way to parse the historical record or a mentally unstable moron grasping at straws to make everything about how great MJ was? You pick.
Points don't measure your impact on scoring, assists don't measure how your passing impacts the game and rebounds certainly don't measure your contributing to your team's rebounding.
I frequently avoid the box score and prefer to discuss how a player's skillset should promote superior chemistry to win, so they don't need more talent (don't need more help).
Of course that's the problem with Lebron's game - it doesn't foster good chemistry, so he always needs more talent (help).
But regardless of the talent that he receives, his weak chemistry limits team ceiling/Finals record, while his imposition of spot-up roles prevents young player development (can't win organically) or star teammates from playing to capacity (near their career highs).
This is all statistical and historical record.. Unlike Pippen, Grant and BJ, zero young players went from single-digit producers to meaningful contributors on Lebron's watch of imposing spot-up roles (zero young player development in 2 decades), while Lebron has many examples of bad fits and teammates playing below capacity.
The source of this weak chemistry is Lebron's imposition of spot-up roles, which we know occurs because nearly all teammates see lower assists alongside him and higher assisted rate (play-finishing, aka spot-up role).. Meanwhile, teammates saw higher assists alongside an assist target like Jordan or Curry, so their teams had high assists and greater strategic capacity.. Ultimately, Lebron isn't an assist target and also lowers the hold-time or assists of teammates, which yields low TEAM assists and a brand that gets stomped on the championship level.
Ultimately, there are several key stats that demonstrate Lebron's weak brand of ball and underachieving of on-paper talent, such as 1) worst championship frequency of any top 10 candidate 2) turned preseason favorites (favored talent) into underdog or loser every year from 2011-2016 and also 2021.. 3) zero #1 offenses in 2 decades despite phenomenal offensive help and stars from every position 4) low-assist teams 5) the most bad losses of anyone in history (sweeps, record losses, upset losses, locked up in a loss, lottery seasons) 6) zero young player development 7) many examples of bad fits and teammates playing below "capacity", aka near career highs
lol twog
https://www.nytimes.com/2003/05/04/sport...
In the season's final days, when many of Jordan's teammates were asked if they wanted to contribute to a retirement gift, the Wizards arrived quickly at a collective decision: no.
According to one official, Hughes was explicitly told by Jordan to get him the ball if he wanted to play. When Hughes began passing it to Stackhouse as much as to Jordan, he was soon benched. Point guard Tyronn Lue, the official said, obliged and began finding Jordan every time he played. ''He was scared to death of what would happen to him in his career if he didn't,'' the player said of Lue. ''He was always looking at the bench at Michael.''
Late last fall, Richard Hamilton and Jordan got into an ugly shouting match. The two officials said it began when Hamilton told Jordan he was tired of being a ''Jordannaire,'' the term used for Jordan's role players in Chicago. ''Rip was a young, brash guy who threatened the idea of Michael being the guy here,'' the official said. ''He was promptly gotten rid of for Stackhouse.'' A person close to Jordan denied Hamilton was traded because of a personality conflict. He insisted contractual issues led to the Stackhouse deal.
Just helping teammates develop their passing skills I guess. Just hilarious. This is the reality of MJ without Phil reining him in.
From Phil Jackson's book:
This was not going to be an easy conversation. Basically I was planning to ask Michael, who had won his third scoring title in a row the previous season, to reduce the number of shots he took so that other members of the team could get more involved in the offense. I knew this would be a challenge for him: Michael was only the second player to win both a scoring title and the league MVP award in the same year, the first being Kareem Abdul-Jabbar in 1971. I told him that I was planning to implement the triangle and, as a result, he probably wouldn’t be able to win another scoring title. “You’ve got to share the spotlight with your teammates,” I said, “because if you don’t, they won’t grow.”
“Okay, I guess I could average thirty-two points,” he said. “That’s eight points a quarter. Nobody else is going to do that.” “Well, when you put it that way, maybe you can win the title,” I said. “But how about scoring a few more of those points at the end of the game?”
Looking back, Michael says that he liked this approach because it “allowed me to be the person I needed to be.” Sometimes I would tell him that he needed to be aggressive and set the tone for the team. Other times I’d say, “Why don’t you try to get Scottie going so that the defenders will go after him and then you can attack?” In general, I tried to give Michael room to figure out how to integrate his personal ambitions with those of the team. “Phil knew that winning the scoring title was important to me,” Michael says now, “but I wanted to do it in a way that didn’t take away from what the team was doing.”
Yup, sounds like a guy who had to score to make up for his subpar scoring teammates and try to grow his teammates, rather than a guy who was trying to score as much as possible without getting in the way of his coach's game plan.
MJ fundamentally had a wide receiver mindset - he's just trying to get his. Lebron's always had the QB mindset - he's trying to make the overall system successful.
You can also see this on tape - it's usually Scottie Pippen that directs the teammates on both ends of the floor, he tells them where to go and he sets them up for success. Likewise, for the Warriors, it's Draymond Green. What's crazy is that Lebron, on top of everything else he does, is also the one that does this. This is the kind of stuff that stats miss.
Just so that we keep the record straight, Lebron & ring factor analysis:
Dwyane Wade
Rings without Lebron: 1
Lebron rings without Wade: 2
Chris Bosh
Rings without Lebron: 0
Lebron rings without Bosh: 2
Spoelstra
Rings without Lebron: 0
Lebron Rings without Spo: 2
Kevin Love
Rings without Lebron: 0
Lebron Rings without Love: 3
Kyrie Irving
Rings without Lebron: 0
Lebron Rings without Kyrie: 3
Ty Lue
Rings without Lebron: 0
Lebron Rings without Ty Lue: 3
Anthony Davis
Rings without Lebron: 0
Lebron Rings without AD: 3
MJ never lost the instant he got 1 all-star, so he didn't need another one, whereas Lebron mostly lost in embarrassing fashion with every all-star that nhe ever had and was forced to run away to form additional all-star teams where he mostly lost again in embarrassing fashion.
So it's night and day.
Lebron fans pretend it's impressive to mostly lose with preseason favorites or after teaming up with 2 opposing franchise players.. So imagine if Jokic hand-picked 2 opposing franchise players and then mostly lost........... and then everyone pretended this unprecedented losing was infact goat-level and required a goat debate.. it's absurd... you should feel dumb that you fell for it..
Klutch Sports is to blame for this charade and it started when they attacked Barkley for saying that Lebron didn't want to compete - their personal attack on Barkley put the media in fear, so they just fell in line - they started misreporting MJ and Lebron's careers to create a fake debate that Klutch wanted... Again, you fell for it.
Ultimately, for Lebron to win as 1st option, he needed franchise players at 2nd and 3rd option that could "take over" and "close" - yet he still mostly lost, while MJ couldn't lose the instant he got a non-franchise guy that was a historic bricklayer, choker and low-producer.
twog, I thought you cared about title equity as measured by actual titles? I guess you don't care any more now that it's been debunked as not being favorable for MJ?
MJ made ECF without the triangle and was the only team to win games off the 89' Pistons, while the Pistons ran the table on everyone else.
MJ had a horrible lottery cast in 89', but carried this low seed to major upsets of the #1 SRS Cavs, Ewing's Knicks and nearly the Bad Boys.. Meanwhile Lebron was getting swept by the 07' Spurs and locked up at the same time - it's night and day.
The Bulls look great with MJ with the triangle: MJ's skillset makes the triangle possible
Phil was a 1st-time nobody coach in 1990 that lost in the ECF just like Doug Collins in 89',
And MJ's skillset doesn't make the triangle possible because the triangle had been around forever, but MJ made it win - it never won without MJ or his close (kobe).. It needed complete post-dominance to win, so this meant prime MJ...... or "clone" MJ + Pau or Shaq
that's the historical record
The Bulls look great without MJ with the triangle: the triangle makes marginal players look better
MJ carried the triangle because the Bulls fell from the goat modern team (3-peat) to 2nd Round loser due exclusively to their massive drop-off on offense (defense remained the same).
And the 2nd Round seeding or accomplishment was inflated because opponents weren't playing hard against the Bulls all year just like the Celtics recently took the night off against on the Lakers without AD/Lebron.
So the 94' Bulls had the biggest surprise factor and no pressure period on their side, which they rode to the playoffs and were exposed.. After the cat was out of the bag and teams adjusted to the Bulls without MJ, the "real" bulls without MJ were basically lottery in 95/96, assuming MJ hadn't returned.
From Phil Jackson's book:
Yup, sounds like a guy who had to score to make up for his subpar scoring teammates and try to grow his teammates, rather than a guy who was trying to score as much as possible without getting in the way of his coach's game plan.
You're making my point - MJ found a way to square that circle and achieve GOAT individual stats and GOAT team success at the same time - no one else ever did that, which is why MJ won the most chips in the modern era as the best player, and is the GOAT
Even Phil didn't know MJ was that good because Phil was shown in the Last Dance telling MJ that "you won't be scoring champ in the triangle"... MJ proved him wrong obviously.
The numbers confirm how Jordan squared the circle that Phil thought he couldn't because only MJ was good enough to carry the league's biggest burden (scoring or usage leader) and still play a championship brand of ball (win titles).
Everyone else that was scoring champ had to tone it down and NOT be scoring champ to win, except MJ.. Only MJ continued being a hot-doggin' scoring champ while winning titles, whereas everyone else had to take some mustard off the hot dog and couldn't be themselves as much in order to win.. Only MJ got the best of all worlds.. Only the GOAT
MJ fundamentally had a wide receiver mindset - he's just trying to get his. Lebron's always had the QB mindset - he's trying to make the overall system successful.
Jordan passed more than Lebron through half their chips:
PLAYOFFS
85-93' Jordan...... 35/7/7 (6.6 APG)
06-14' Lebron..... 28/8/6 (6/4 APG)
Lebron didn't start averaging more assists than Jordan in the playoffs until Curry's spacing era making offense easier for everyone (2015 onwards).
So Lebron passed less for the first half of his chips and wasn't required to be a good defender for the other half (no all-defense in his 30's)
He failed... zero #1 offenses in 2 decades and countless bad fits and weak chemistry
He failed due to low IQ - he doesn't understand the best brand of ball, so he gets beat by it (Spurs, Warriors, Nuggets, Magic, Mavs), aka ball movement.. He never evolved out of AAU ball-dominance, so he never learned to play off teammates and have great chemistry.
CAREER APG
Westbrook............ 8.2
Rondo................... 7.9
Kyrie...................... 5.7
Wade..................... 5.4
Jordan................... 5.3
Pippen.................. 5.2
So everyone passed more than Pippen such as Lebron's sidekicks, Jordan, or other 90's sidekicks (payton, kj, stockton, hardaway, etc)..
Jordan averaged more assists than Pippen for their Finals career, playoff career and regular season career - this includes 6 of 9 playoff runs alongside Pippen and 3 title runs (91', 93', 97')
The tape shows MJ leading the way on both ends and Pippen being the passive and soft beta mentality that everyone always knew him for and still knows him for.. Pippen was a meltdown machine and historic choker - no one has more historic examples of choking than Pippen.
In addition to directing traffic on both ends, Jordan was the enforcer for the Bulls like when X-Man dominated Pippen in 92' Playoffs and getting him to melt down... It was MJ that stood up to X-Man to prevent another Game 7 migraine from Pippen.
Now that's on the tape... Jordan was the Bulls enforcer and also carried the scoring or clutch load (10-30 ppg more than pippen in every series)l, while getting more DPOY votes every year and leading the APG as well
twog, do you not understand that the quotes reveal MJ as being just an egotistical cog that Phil Jackson had to coddle in order for the team to win? Also, the threads I linked to demonstrate that Lebron led better offenses than MJ ever did and the Bulls being #1 had more to do with the Bulls performing better with MJ off the court than Lebron's teams performing with Lebron off the court.
With that said, it's not surprising that people like you worship MJ.
twog, it's interesting that you were so eager to share all sorts of anecdotes about your college career but can't answer this simple question. I was thinking that it's in the 3-5 range, but now I'm thinking it might be worse, as in like 1 or maybe you never even played in an official game. Care to elaborate?
Also what's your take on MJ begging David Stern to change the rules so that the Pistons won't bully him any more? I thought you didn't want to be associated with the sport because it was getting soft?
twog, I thought you cared about title equity as measured by actual titles? I guess you don't care any more now that it's been debunked as not being favorable for MJ?
Most rings in modern era as the best player - Jordan
Best winning-frequency of modern era - Jordan
Best production rate/individual dominance - Jordan
Least all-star help in history - Jordan
Won with 1st-time nobody coach - Jordan
Most 2-way accolades in history - Jordan
Best clutch performer in history - Jordan
Most #1 offenses in history: TIE - Jordan and Magic/Kareem
MJ seems to win regardless of how we look at it
twog, were you also so bad at on-court communication that you literally can't tell that Pippen added more value than Jordan here and this has nothing to do with his APG? Did you also ask the coach, why do we need to do any of that instead of everyone just doing their thing?
I mean MJ had 8 seasons to prove that he could win without Phil Jackson - how come he won zero, unlike all the other all-time greats? That's your logic, right?
Which reminds me:
So what's the typical casual fan argument for Brady being more important than Belichick? Why is it that a lot of people have recently decided that Brady was the more important part of the dynasty than Belichick? Isn't it that Brady won a Super Bowl without Belichick whereas Belichick without Brady hasn't really had much team success?
It surely is hard for a coach to win with the goat or 2 top 10 players of all time in your team !
Paul Westhead
https://www.basketball-reference.com/coa...
An amazing 2 years as coach but hey , he only had kareem and magic and he won and what happen afterward ?
Nothing ….
Players makes the shot or choke on making shots not the coach .
Lol for the bolded .
the Bulls being #1 had more to do with the Bulls performing better with MJ off the court
Huh?
In 1994, the Bulls fell from the goat modern team and to 2nd Round loser due exclusively to their massive drop-off on offense (goat offense to #14 in league), while the defense remained the same.
so no, the bulls' offense didn't perform better without MJ on the court - they fell from the goat offense to #14 in league, which accounted for the drop-off from goat team to 2nd Round loser (defense remained the same)
I mean MJ had 8 seasons to prove that he could win without Phil Jackson - how come he won zero, unlike all the other all-time greats? That's your logic, right?
he never had an all-star teammate until he got phil - it's coincidence that he happened to get the modicum of help that he needed to never lose at the same time that phil arrived
the instant that mj got 1 all-star (1990), he didn't lose more than 2 straight games for 9 years (90-98'), whereas prime Lebron was swept, lottery, upset and locked up - all in his prime - he lost 3+ in a row tons of times with multiple all-star teammates
the bulls' offense didn't perform better without MJ because they fell from the goat offense to #14 in the league in 94', which accounted for the biggest-drop-off ever from goat team to 2nd Round loser (defense remained the same).... after the one-off in 94' where no one cared about them, they were lottery in 95/96 if mj never returns
What would it take for Lebron to 3-peat?
Wade/Bosh or Kyrie/Love weren't nearly enough, while a Jeff Bezos version of Pippen (AD) isn't nearly enough.
Maybe if we teamed him up with Jokic AND Giannis? would that be enough for a dynasty or would he screw it up and underwhelm like everything else?..
I'm not sure he would 3-peat with Jokic and Giannis due to his history of weak brand of ball and chemistry, thereby underachieving favored talent (losing with preseason favorites)
twog, do you not understand that the quotes reveal MJ as being just an egotistical cog that Phil Jackson had to coddle in order for the team to win? Also, the threads I linked to demonstrate that Lebron led better offenses than MJ ever did and the Bulls being #1 had more to do with the Bulls performing better with MJ off the court than Lebron's teams performing with Lebron off the court.
With that said, it's not surprising that people like you worship MJ.
Funny calling someone egotistical when they play hard defence every game like MJ .
And u even admit there isn’t much stats attack to defence .
So why do it if not to help the team to win ?
Phil Jackson never coached Lebron or Kareem.
Pippen is amazing but probably not top 10 all time. Though it's true that Phil Jackson did have some amazing top-end talent on the Bulls, unlike for instance, the Kobe-led Lakers where the top-end talent was somewhat underwhelming with Kobe & Pau. I'm not sure how that helps the argument for MJ.
I don't think anyone's arguing that Phil Jackson adds like 5-7 points per 100 possessions (though if you try to measure coaching impact the same way you do for players, that's close to where Phil Jackson ends up) because if that's the case, MJ is probably not even a top-20 player all-time from an impact perspective. But we're in a world where even if you completely eliminate Phil Jackson as a factor, MJ looks worse than Lebron at peak impact and not even remotely close for overall value. Even acknowledging that Phil Jackson is a factor at all for winning more or less ends MJ's increasingly marginal case for higher peak.
the bulls' offense didn't perform better without MJ because they fell from the goat offense to #14 in the league in 94', which accounted for the biggest-drop-off ever from goat team to 2nd Round loser (defense remained the same).... after the one-off in 94' where no one cared about them, they were lottery in 95/96 if mj never returns
You didn't get it the first time, not sure why you think elaborating on your misunderstanding would help.
As in, no that's not what I meant and you need to learn to read better.
